ES first then seating depth?

[wallz]

I did most of my reloading without a chrony. Always went and followed the small groups. 200 m ladder test, 10-12 rounds. Then 3 shot groups for final powder amounts. Usually 3-5 different amounts right in the "node" area. Then finalize with some seating depth tests.

Now that I have a chrony, I tested all my reloads and found I have great ES and SD numbers, well that was not really going to be news to me as the groups were great at distances out to 800m and beyond on some rifles.

I now use my chrony during my latest ladder test, but have to tell myself, chase the group size, not the speed. Most chrony users chase the speed numbers, and not the groups. Chase the groups, and the ES and SD numbers will be there. I am mid way through my latest reloading, but with this cold snap we are getting, it will be a delayed process to finish. Loading a new bullet/primer combo as my others bullets have run out.

 

[adamg]

I run .002” neck tension in my bottle neck calibers. For each, matching brass. And everything else Ganderite mentioned above.

You want consistency.

If we are putting a number to it, we should also put the measurement technique. What is your technique?

I've tried measuring the ID of the neck before bullet insertion, and subtracting bullet diameter. But I don't think this is a good technique, as I don't think calipers are good at measuring the ID of a case neck.

I think better way is to measure OD of case neck before bullet insertion, and measure again after bullet insertion, subtract the two numbers. (My buddy's idea.)

 

[6MT]

If we are putting a number to it, we should also put the measurement technique. What is your technique?

I've tried measuring the ID of the neck before bullet insertion, and subtracting bullet diameter. But I don't think this is a good technique, as I don't think calipers are good at measuring the ID of a case neck.

I think better way is to measure OD of case neck before bullet insertion, and measure again after bullet insertion, subtract the two numbers. (My buddy's idea.)

I measure the neck outside diameter with a seated bullet. Subtract .002” and that’s my bushing size for that neck tension. (I use F.L. bushing dies.)

 

[Longbow]

I did most of my reloading without a chrony. Always went and followed the small groups. 200 m ladder test, 10-12 rounds. Then 3 shot groups for final powder amounts. Usually 3-5 different amounts right in the "node" area. Then finalize with some seating depth tests.

Now that I have a chrony, I tested all my reloads and found I have great ES and SD numbers, well that was not really going to be news to me as the groups were great at distances out to 800m and beyond on some rifles.

I now use my chrony during my latest ladder test, but have to tell myself, chase the group size, not the speed. Most chrony users chase the speed numbers, and not the groups. Chase the groups, and the ES and SD numbers will be there. I am mid way through my latest reloading, but with this cold snap we are getting, it will be a delayed process to finish. Loading a new bullet/primer combo as my others bullets have run out.

What do you mean when you say the node area?

 

[nowarningshot]

Only going to comment on one bit of the OP. Expensive components, least shots. For me that sounds like a chea...., frugal hunter. Not unlike myself. For me the process of reloading/development, and the end use be it competition/hunting are two separate related hobbies. Easy to say when your a decades long component hoarder.

 

[coyoteking]

You have a load that works. If you make a change that improves the ES, the group may get bigger. Forget the ES. Look at the groups.

I have a fair load for my 308, but I think it can be better. So my next test of 50 rounds will be:

10 of the "standard load" as a control.

10 the same but with a tighter neck tension.

10 the same but seated 20 thou longer

10 with 0.3 gr more powder

10 with 0.3 gr more powder and seated 20 thou longer


I will not measure ES because it does not matter.

It matters a great deal when shooting small targets beyond 500 yards.

 

[nowarningshot]

The op has not answered what the end use. If they're hunting, terms like es, SD, bc just don't matter. Most high bc bullets pass old cup n core bullets for drop and drift beyond ethical shots on game. If the end use is target/competition then sure go down every brass prep, component, assembly rabbit hole.

 

[Jon87]

Satterlee method is useless for finding any so-called velocity "nodes", FYI. Way too small of sample size.

I find it useful for pointing in the right direction. It won't show you where nodes are for sure, but it will show you where they aren't. Usually this method will have a couple of areas that look like nodes and after checking with larger sample sizes one of them will turn out to be real or be very close. Lots of ways to skin this cat though

 

[kthomas]

I find it useful for pointing in the right direction. It won't show you where nodes are for sure, but it will show you where they aren't. Usually this method will have a couple of areas that look like nodes and after checking with larger sample sizes one of them will turn out to be real or be very close. Lots of ways to skin this cat though

Speaking as someone who used to use the Satterlee method, this method is really only good for finding approximate velocity per charge weight, and pressure (if you go that far).

It's a velocity ladder test, that's it. It does nothing to identify potential nodes are any sort of velocity stability.

 

[todbartell]

Every year I do a Satterlee load dev for a rifle, it has always proven that accuracy is not as good as other methods of load dev

 

[Lead hammer]

If we are putting a number to it, we should also put the measurement technique. What is your technique?

I've tried measuring the ID of the neck before bullet insertion, and subtracting bullet diameter. But I don't think this is a good technique, as I don't think calipers are good at measuring the ID of a case neck.

I think better way is to measure OD of case neck before bullet insertion, and measure again after bullet insertion, subtract the two numbers. (My buddy's idea.)

This works but depends on if you turn your necks, or mark the brass where you measure it before and after.

 

[wallz]

What do you mean when you say the node area?

Without the use of a chrony, a speed node will show up on a ladder test. These 2 or 3 bullet holes will be in close proximity with each other, and depending on conditions, near the same "elevation" on target, with respect to a lack of other words to use.

Once I have this "node", say best was shooting 41.2 and 41.5 grains of powder, I will usually load up 3 rounds of each at 41.0, 41.2, 41.4, and 41.6 grains powder and shoot for groups. Once I find as close to a clover leaf group out of these, I will play with seating depth to close the group up. Usually go 2 or 3 steps up and down from the best group from the last test at a know "seated" depth.

Now with an actual chrony with me, I can confirm this speed "node" not only on paper, but also on the chrony.

This I am just in the process of doing with my 6.5 CM. Was shooting the 139 gr lapua scenar bullet, and have run out, and instead of just buying more, I have 500 pcs of the nosler 140 gr RDF bullets. Going to be using new powder, new primer, and new bullet in the 6.5 CM to just use up those tips. I tried selling them at a great discount, but just couldn't move them, so figured I'd just shoot them. I'm just a recreational shooter, so while to me precision is what I'm striving for, its not going to kill me using a bit of a lesser bullet. I did try these out in the CM when I bought them, but the 139 gr lapua were shooting better groups so went that route. Interestingly I'm getting close to 100 fps slower with this new combo, so that is just interesting for me, so I'll experiment with it a bit and see if it is the primer, or powder that is giving me less speed, or a combination of both. The rifle has over 1000 rounds through it now, so no other real reason for slowing down.

 

[kthomas]

Without the use of a chrony, a speed node will show up on a ladder test. These 2 or 3 bullet holes will be in close proximity with each other, and depending on conditions, near the same "elevation" on target, with respect to a lack of other words to use.

Once I have this "node", say best was shooting 41.2 and 41.5 grains of powder, I will usually load up 3 rounds of each at 41.0, 41.2, 41.4, and 41.6 grains powder and shoot for groups. Once I find as close to a clover leaf group out of these, I will play with seating depth to close the group up. Usually go 2 or 3 steps up and down from the best group from the last test at a know "seated" depth.

Now with an actual chrony with me, I can confirm this speed "node" not only on paper, but also on the chrony.

This I am just in the process of doing with my 6.5 CM. Was shooting the 139 gr lapua scenar bullet, and have run out, and instead of just buying more, I have 500 pcs of the nosler 140 gr RDF bullets. Going to be using new powder, new primer, and new bullet in the 6.5 CM to just use up those tips. I tried selling them at a great discount, but just couldn't move them, so figured I'd just shoot them. I'm just a recreational shooter, so while to me precision is what I'm striving for, its not going to kill me using a bit of a lesser bullet. I did try these out in the CM when I bought them, but the 139 gr lapua were shooting better groups so went that route. Interestingly I'm getting close to 100 fps slower with this new combo, so that is just interesting for me, so I'll experiment with it a bit and see if it is the primer, or powder that is giving me less speed, or a combination of both. The rifle has over 1000 rounds through it now, so no other real reason for slowing down.

There isn't a large enough sample size in this kind of testing to make the conclusions you are making.

I bet that if you made 5 rounds of ammo from this test with your best "node" and with your widest "node", and ran them over a chrono, they would probably be pretty similar in ES/SD. I bet the result would be eye opening.

Better even yet, do 20 rounds of each, and run the test over 4 different days. Or make 100 rounds of each and do 25 of each over the chrono over 4 different days. And I bet you will quickly see that what you thought were "nodes" aren't actually "nodes" at all.

 

[coleman1495]

Bryan Litz has stated that he believes the expected accuracy variation is +\- 30% standard deviation. This means that a 1 moa average setup will yield .70 to 1.3 moa within 1 std deviation.

Keeping the 30% rule in mind, it becomes apparent that a person would need huge group sizes to accurately determine what the best load is. If you tweak seating depth and get 10% smaller group sizes, you’d have to fire a lot rounds to determine that.

Always load for group sizes first keeping in mind how much variation is expected naturally. I’d venture to guess that the vast majority of people here should just ignore the velocity spreads all together.

 

[adamg]

There isn't a large enough sample size in this kind of testing to make the conclusions you are making.

I bet that if you made 5 rounds of ammo from this test with your best "node" and with your widest "node", and ran them over a chrono, they would probably be pretty similar in ES/SD. I bet the result would be eye opening.

Better even yet, do 20 rounds of each, and run the test over 4 different days. Or make 100 rounds of each and do 25 of each over the chrono over 4 different days. And I bet you will quickly see that what you thought were "nodes" aren't actually "nodes" at all.

I 100% agree with you. I do not believe in velocity "nodes", period. And I definitely don't believe that literally 1 sample at a given powder charge is enough to find a velocity "node" or "flat spot".

I have yet to see anyone explain how increasing powder charge can, in a "node", result in a different speed increase than at a different charge. There's just no science behind it, at all, to explain it.

 

[kthomas]

Bryan Litz has stated that he believes the expected accuracy variation is +\- 30% standard deviation. This means that a 1 moa average setup will yield .70 to 1.3 moa within 1 std deviation.

Keeping the 30% rule in mind, it becomes apparent that a person would need huge group sizes to accurately determine what the best load is. If you tweak seating depth and get 10% smaller group sizes, you’d have to fire a lot rounds to determine that.

Always load for group sizes first keeping in mind how much variation is expected naturally. I’d venture to guess that the vast majority of people here should just ignore the velocity spreads all together.

Most shooters and reloaders don't understand how to properly test things.

They will do a simple ladder test, and think they found a velocity node. Or do a bullet depth seating test with 2 or 3 rounds per depth, and think they found an accuracy node. Or do a 2 or 3 round tuner setting test, and think they found a magical tuner setting.

In reality, they very likely haven't found anything that matches up with their so-called conclusions.

Shooters/reloaders like to make pretty dispositive conclusions from testing that can't provide such conclusions. We fool ourselves into thinking we found an accuracy or velocity node, when in reality, our small samples had no way of determining those conclusions.

The good news, is that with good components, good reloading equipment and a consistent process, it's hard to make bad ammo. We think our ammo is good because of our testing, but in reality its good despite of our testing.

 

[jimbo14]

The good news, is that with good components, good reloading equipment and a consistent process, it's hard to make bad ammo. We think our ammo is good because of our testing, but in reality its good despite of our testing.

Great point.

I was just watching some of the ‘Ruined for Life’ videos by Keith G from Winning in the Wind. He touches on some of the issues with sample sizes and not trying to form conclusions based on a few shots.

 

[Grizzlypeg]

Why does +/- a grain of powder produce more extreme spread? Why does .010 change in COL / seating depth produce more extreme spread?

 

[bearhunter]

Hello,
thought I’d get some insight from experienced reloaders out here.
I have recently acquired a chronograph after 35 years of reloading.
I before have developed a load just by the best 5shot groups.
Now I have this chronograph, and doing some testing of my previous
loads my ES is not good. Like 100 fps.
I’d like to start developing a load for a new rifle without wasting a lot of components
Since the prices have skyrocketed..
What I have read/and know that ES is quite important so does one test the load watching ES,
then pick the load with the lowest ES, no matter what the grouping looks like, then tweak the
seating depth to acquire a decent group? Sorry for the long winded post. Thanks in advance,
for any/all responses.

There's a lot of good information in these posts, however, if your magazine limits your seating depth and your particular rifle has a lot of freebore, you don't have much to play with when it comes to "seating depth"

Freebore, is the distance the bullet has to "jump" before it enters the leade.

Freebore combined with sloppy chambers, especially in the throat/neck causes all sorts of the issues you suggest. Turning the neck thickness under such circumstances usually just makes it worse

If your extreme spreads in velocities are a problem, considering the distances you feel comfortable shooting, then you need to go to different components.

For instance, go to flat base, round nose bullets, so that the base of the bullets is held longer in the neck, before the nose enters the leade.

Round nose/flat base bullets will do everything almost as well as Spitzer Boat Tail or ELD bullets out to 300 yards, which is the practical range most people have the ability to shoot well.

Often excessive velocity spreads are the result of excessive case expansion, poor primer ignition, or wrong primer for the powder burn rate.

Case expansion can be held to a minimum by partial or neck sizing only and may fix your issues, if you aren't doing it already.

Going to magnum primers may fix your issues as well.

Reducing or increasing your propellant charge is another place to look.

Most manuals will highlight or mention a load that gave the developer the best accuracy/velocity combination.

Accuracy and ES go hand in hand.

When people insist on getting every last foot per second out of their loads and it isn't behaving properly, time to reduce those loads.

Magnum cartridges normally require close to maximum loads for for best overall consistent results, but each rifle is an entity unto itself.

I know a fellow with a 7mm Rem Mag that will not shoot any factory ammo well, no matter how expensive. It will shoot handloads that are close to maximum into groups that are around 8-10 inches at 200 yards

When his loads are made up using cases fireformed to his chamber, which is on the large side of mean, with loads a few grains above MINIMUM specs for all of the bullet weights, and types he shoots the rifle groups into less than two moa right out past 300 yds.

He had to change primers, now very expensive to ignite the powders he had on hand.

I believe he was using H1000 and Magnum as he liked to use bullets over 150 grains.

I don't really know of any way to get away with finding loads that shoot consistently accurate out of any rifle without trying a lot of different components

I'm blessed with having a lot of different components for everything I shoot on hand. It wasn't always that way tho.

There was a time when I couldn't afford the luxury of having an extensive selection of primers, powder, bullets, and other components to mix and match.

I can understand your issues.

When I was price or supply constrained back in the day, all that could be achieved were the best results with the components on hand. Sometimes, there just weren't any "best results" to be had.

At least you have the Chrony to help you out with your dilemma.

Find a load that gives you the least extreme velocity spread and I'm willing to bet it will also be the most accurate for the components you already have on hand.

If you're down to your last few ounces of powder, few dozen primers, few dozen bullets, then you don't have much to work with and you're going to have to replenish your supply.

 

[wallz]

There isn't a large enough sample size in this kind of testing to make the conclusions you are making.

I bet that if you made 5 rounds of ammo from this test with your best "node" and with your widest "node", and ran them over a chrono, they would probably be pretty similar in ES/SD. I bet the result would be eye opening.

Better even yet, do 20 rounds of each, and run the test over 4 different days. Or make 100 rounds of each and do 25 of each over the chrono over 4 different days. And I bet you will quickly see that what you thought were "nodes" aren't actually "nodes" at all.

I get where you are coming from on this. Small sample sizes can give a slated result. I loaded before I had a chrony, and now just happen to have one, and using it along the process, but keeping in mind following the group, not the speed or ES/DS numbers off the chrony, but using them as a second verifying component.

Once I have a decent group from the above usually load 10 rounds up and verify again. Then I was loading 50 and playing with the tuner. Working this way, I find that there is minimal tuner adjusting, because the load was worked with the tuner setting where it was during the loading. Before the tuner I was doing it this way, then working backwards out to 1000m finding my speed for the range finder input to calculate my scope adjusting out to distance.
Now with the chrony, I have another check, for speed avg and don't need to reckneck the numbers to go distance. I still verify and can adjust this on the fly, but now with less components used to get the end results.

I usually run batches of 50 rounds in this rifle when I'm out having fun from the bench, and now can see other info on my ES and DS numbers that I never had before. Again, did I really need those for what I do, no, but nonetheless I now have it and another way of verifying everything.

I've only reloaded for 2 years now, so all this info to me is interesting, and a huge learning experience, and I love gleaning from others that have been doing things for lotsa years.

For comparison my last load with the scenars, running 50 rounds per session, shoot 10, reload mag, shoot 10, for 50 rounds producing ES: 37.5 and DS 8.0. Previous trip ES: 36.5 and DS: 8.7. Previous trip ES: 45.8 and DS: 8.8. So I do have a few decent sample sizes from my previous loads, and if I look, I'm sure 2 or 3 more trips on top of that. I did something correctly without the chrony to get these before I ran the chrony. Now with one, I can see and track these, simply for knowledge, or verification of "I'm doing" something correctly in my reloading process to constantly keep these figures.

I load on the bench either 50 or 100 round batches of these, and they are staying consistent, so I want to continue that consistency on my bench, that translates to the range bench. All this using a manual scale, so I love hearing from guys that are saying they can't get that consistency unless they spend super money on the fancy ones. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they are great, and maybe one day, but not necessary to get consistency in your reloads. Like the chrony, not super necessary, as my hits on steel out to distance were proving this, but now with the chrony another verification, and maybe even a quick show if and when something does go astray to see it sooner.