European vs American

In General Terms who makes better quality firearms:

  • Total voters
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I voted Europe although it's tough to make an across the board comparison. Among the big makers, the Europeans whip America when it comes to double shotguns and semi-autos. America still holds the edge on pump guns although that's not as certain since the introduction of the Benelli Nova.

Revolvers are an American strength but the best semi-autos come from Europe.

America wins the battle in lever action rifles but finer bolt action rifles come from Europe although not by all that much.

In the smaller, custom gun making operations, it's a tough race. There are many fine custom makers in America and a Galazan side-lock o/u or a Martin Hagn rifle compare equally with just about anything made in Europe. There are however more fine gun makers in Europe than in North America.
 
No european original makers for the lever action gun. All of them are american in origin(Henry, Browning, Winchester, Marlin)

Most modern bolt action rifle has strong european roots(Mauser), except for the Lee-Enfield which was invented by the scotish born, american, James Paris Lee.

The modern six shooter(Colt, S&W), automatic hand guns and rifles(Browning, Garand)) has all, strong american root.

All lever action, pump, automatic and over and under shotguns originated in the US. (all John Browning design)

From a pragmatic point of view, most of these international design and manufactured guns works well as one can expect, given the strengt of the metal used.

Personally, I like any of the my older guns, regardless of which continent they came from, since they are mostly fitted together by individual craftsmen at the arms factories, a luxury we seldom see these days of computer generated manufacture.
 
Leeper said:
Europeans often seem to regard rifles, like many other things, as an engineering excercise. They do things just to show they can be done a certain way and still work. Sometimes, they don't really work all that well. The Colt-Sauer rifle is a classic example.
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And just what, pray tell, is "wrong" with a Sauer(in your opinion anyhow)? I happen to love Sauer rifles...Just can't afford one :cry:
 
How many years has America been making FINE guns

How many years has Europe been making FINE guns
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Remington has been around since 1816. Steyr-Mannlicher has been around since 1864. You'd think that with a 48 year head start Remington would have a thing or two on those Austrians!
Heym started in 1865, Mauser in 1834, Sako 1915 and so on. I think there is a mentality diference, and that is a big issue. For the most part low price sells in North America. Look at the Stevens, Mossberg ATR, and the Remington 710.
 
aulrich said:
TimC

I type corrected... I think. That opion was formulated in conversation with German relatives and visitors over the years, they left me with the impression that is was not a cheap proposition to get into hunting.

I guess I have two visions of Eupoean hunters, Farmer/ game keeprs , those guys who seem to blast a lot of fox's and those guys and those who wear red coats and chase foxes on horses yelling tally ho (Though I know thats been banned now) bowing thos damn horns :).

What is it like getting permission to hunt is there any public land to hunt.
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No such thing in UK and most of europe as public land. here shooting is reasonably easy and cheap to get involved in. The germans are the driving force behind europe wide legislation. A Jagdschein (hunters license) in Germany will take about 2 years and $10,000 to acquire (quoted from a US Army sgt in Germany who took it). Most Germans who hunt do so having started as youths and recieve continual education and training/assessment up until they pass the test! They will have a big target above the front door as proof of acceptance by the locl society!
Thankfully here in UK we are pretty well self regulating at the moment!
 
snowhunter said:
All lever action, pump, automatic and over and under shotguns originated in the US. (all John Browning design)
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Note quite. There were several o/u shotgun designs well before Browning came up with the Superposed. All of them originated in Europe.
 
1899 said:
How many years has America been making FINE guns

How many years has Europe been making FINE guns
Click to expand...


Remington has been around since 1816. Steyr-Mannlicher has been around since 1864. You'd think that with a 48 year head start Remington would have a thing or two on those Austrians!
Heym started in 1865, Mauser in 1834, Sako 1915 and so on. I think there is a mentality diference, and that is a big issue. For the most part low price sells in North America. Look at the Stevens, Mossberg ATR, and the Remington 710.
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Beretta has been making firearms since the 17th centry I belive! :!:
 
I went with Europe. Although if I was buying a new higher end rifle I would definitely consider some of the semi custom jobs from North America like a Kimber or such. Or have a custom done "locally". 8)

But I like older rifles, of the mauser heritage. The no longer made Husqvarna is one of my favorites, I own two. Older Sakos and Tikkas are very nice as well. Like Leeper said back there some of their stocks are a little much, and I too would prefer a straight top over the monte carlo type lines.
 
Dustin,
Since you asked, I'll answer. What is wrong with the Colt-Sauer (now the model 80 I believe), you ask? Well, here goes:
Complex and fragile lockup. The four locking "lugs" (struts actually) and the actuating cam ring which moves them in and out are complicated. The ring has a tendency to break. Clearances necessary for function adds slop to the already springy rear lock up. Extraction cam is inadequate.
The trigger system is a perfect example of an engineering excercise. Rather than the traditional trigger/sear interaction, they elected to use a toggle system. The trigger is less crisp, has more parts, and works against ittself. As if this were not bad enough, they made the finger piece of aluminum and located it too far forward in the guard. An aluminum trigger has no place on a rifle which is touted as high quality.
Fit and finsh is an example of using shiny to mimic quality workmanship. If a custom gunsmith turned out polishing with all screw holes dished, all corners rounded and surfaces uneven, he would likely be dragged out to the nearest tree and hanged.
The barrel attachment is by conventional threads but with the receiver split and two crossbolts used to lock the barrel in place. This is not a bad system and is often used on switch barrel rigs. They didn't use it to make up a switch barrel though. They used the system to make it easier and cheaper to set headspace. The clamp system can, to a certain extent, correct for poor thread fit.
There are other Sauer rifles which I find to be interesting and which feature sound ideas and workmanship. This model just isn't one of them.
Rifles which are chambered for high intensity cartridges and lock at the rear seldom work out all that well. The best of these was probably the Schulz and Larsen and even it, with it's comparatively massive bolt and receiver, was problematic when reloading. The Sauer was much worse.
I will always remember the week when two different .270's came into the shop. Both had been fired with 7x57 ammunition. One was a Colt-Sauer. The other was a plain, homely, cheap, Savage 110. The Sauer was brought in because it was wrecked after one shot. The stock split, cam ring for the struts broken, magazine wrecked.
The Savage was brought in because, once he realized what he was doing (after 3 shots), the owner figured he should have it checked out. It was fine and he could probably have fired the whole box with no ill effects. You don't always get what you pay for. Regards, Bill.
 
I believe you can draw a direct comparison to automobiles. Mercedes c320 or Ford Crown Victoria. BMW 535 or Chrysler 300. IMO the bottom line is that you get what you pay for, in terms of quality, engineering and reputation.

These are generalizations and there are exceptions to every rule but the bottom line is that you buy what you can afford. My money would go to a semi-custom local smith or european.
 
I think you need to compare them dollar for dollar.

Not only that, you have to set criteria for what is a "good gun"

Is it fanciness and engineering, or is it simplicity and reliability?

I'll take the latter, myself, which is why I don't own too many Euro guns.

That and I've never warmed up to thier ideas about how a gun shoudl look. :D
 
Is it fanciness and engineering, or is it simplicity and reliability?
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This assumes that you can't have all of these features. Or at least all but simplicity.

I suggest that you can have it all. Gatehouse, you wouldn't have bought your awesome .300WSM if a factory Winchester was up to your standards. You wanted more, and the American factories don't give it to you. I think that is the issue.
 
Tough crowd... Europe (and this surprised me) is leading with a whopping 85% to our 14%...
hmmm... missing 1 percentage point - I smell a Liberal - "All guns are bad!"

I have noticed a serious drop in quality of the average high production European makes over the past several years. I'm talking guns which are largely aimed at the North American market. Compare a Tikka M65 with an M695 (I have one) with a T3. Still not bad, but downhill, for sure.
Then look at what Savage (for example) can offer you and compare prices.
Then if you want to pay a few $, why wouldn't you get something custom made here by somebody who really knows what they're doing? It'll still come in severely under the price of Sako Custom, by far!
 
I would go the european brands. Bill does make a good point about the Colt-Sauer rifle but in general I think the european rifles are better.

Jacky
 
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