Expectations versus reality...is it me?
- Thread starter ShawnRich
- Start date
While reading the thread over on rimfirecentral, I came across an interesting post. My groups are often severely downgraded by one "flier". I saw where they often posted "4 shot " and "5 shot " groups. I just figured it was me (and probably still a huge part of the issue) but one thing mentioned was along the lines you mention here VuDu666. Apparently, a bolt could scrape,scratch the next cartridge. The resolve was to polish the bottom of the bolt, something that future versions of the rifle had done in the factory. Another thing for me to look at. Don't get me wrong, some of my groups looked like 5 fliers! but for the ones that had only one flier, something to consider.
Shawno
Here is the start of the discussion, post #47 in this thread https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=738145&page=4
Went out and shot the RAR again today. Bipod, rear bag, 50 yards, Vortex Crossfire II @ 18X.
Not having had any bolt work, this gun is more prone to flyers than my 10/22 with its new JWH bolt. So I got some very nice 4-shot groups and then would get a flyer. Sometimes a very bad flyer.
I am listing the best 4-shot and 5-shot groups for each ammo type, and also the 5-shot group average for each ammo. In some cases there will be two numbers for the averages--the first one without the bad-flyer group, and the second one with it. It didn't seem fair to the stats to not point this out. The really bad flyers give a misperception of how the ammo types did overall. The order the ammo is listed is the order I shot it.
4 shots.....5 shots......Average..........Ammo
0.28..........0.44..........0.68................No rma Match-22
0.16..........0.45..........0.55, 0.74.......Fiocchi HV CPHP
0.28..........0.63..........0.83, 0.92.......Eley HV HP
0.16..........0.40..........0.66................El ey Contact.....also got a 4-shot 0.26
0.58..........0.98..........1.13................El ey Match
0.16..........0.66..........0.70, 0.78.......Eley Tenex.......also got 4-shot 0.23 & 0.40
In both this RAR and my 10/22, Eley Contact is the most consistent small-groups ammo I have ever tested. The Fiocchi at $5 a box is a great buy.
I am also getting the idea that more magnification is better--not only to compensate for weak eyes, but to better show up any shaking due to pulse, breathing, etc.
Polish the bottom of your bolt. Sophia turned me on to this fix. The bottom of your bolt is doing slight damage to the next round. Mine was doing the same thing. I was about to throw up my hands. I tried polishing and slanting the front of the rib on the bottom of the bolt. Totally cured the problem. Bought one of the new american target 22's. It already had this done. It had no problem either. Good luck.
I thought I should update this thread. I have been talking with local shooters and picking up some info for the last week...
I was able to shoot one of the benchrest 22lr setups today, an Anshcutz with a x32 scope on it. After their competition, the member let me try his rifle out while he went inside so I got to shoot one of the competition targets. I did OK, but that type of shooting is very different than shooting my sporter off of my tripod . So I think I am comparing apples and oranges....sort of. At least i know my eye works.
A little later, I exchanged the Barska 3-9 scope off of the Ruger American and put my Vortex Diamondback 4-12 on it. The shooting improved quite a bit so I think that the scope might be a factor. I also have been able to practice while doing exploring options lately and I been receiving some coaching along the way.
As for my original question, "am I expecting too much of the Ruger American?", I think yes, but also I think it can do better than what I am doing. Perhaps a better stock on it and lightening the trigger a lot will help too. After shooting the Anschutz, my RAR trigger feels like pulling a brick. These are changes I will continue to explore. It has been a good bit of learning for me.
I forgot to mention too that I tried the scope test as suggested by Potashminer. Unfortunately, because the groups were so loose, not much was gained from it. But since then, I have decided that the scope needs to be upgraded if I am going to be less frustrated.
Cheers,
Shawn
I was able to shoot one of the benchrest 22lr setups today, an Anshcutz with a x32 scope on it. After their competition, the member let me try his rifle out while he went inside so I got to shoot one of the competition targets. I did OK, but that type of shooting is very different than shooting my sporter off of my tripod . So I think I am comparing apples and oranges....sort of. At least i know my eye works.
A little later, I exchanged the Barska 3-9 scope off of the Ruger American and put my Vortex Diamondback 4-12 on it. The shooting improved quite a bit so I think that the scope might be a factor. I also have been able to practice while doing exploring options lately and I been receiving some coaching along the way.
As for my original question, "am I expecting too much of the Ruger American?", I think yes, but also I think it can do better than what I am doing. Perhaps a better stock on it and lightening the trigger a lot will help too. After shooting the Anschutz, my RAR trigger feels like pulling a brick. These are changes I will continue to explore. It has been a good bit of learning for me.
I forgot to mention too that I tried the scope test as suggested by Potashminer. Unfortunately, because the groups were so loose, not much was gained from it. But since then, I have decided that the scope needs to be upgraded if I am going to be less frustrated.
Cheers,
Shawn
Hi Shawn - I just wanted to touch base here. Your last post showed that you've decided to 'upgrade' scopes,as many have suggested. Your 4-12 is better but to get better target definition I'm still suggesting the Covenant-4, 6-24x50 FFP-SF. Cabelas has them on 'clearance sale' for $200 right now, check out the website for a look at the reticle. It has hash marks to help you see 'where' you're hitting and how 'far off' you are. I have a Savage B22 that only cost $400 tax-incl and when I bought the Covenant-4 it cost $460 PLUS tax.
My suggestion is to get a better scope than the 4-12 before you decide to get a better rifle. The RAR should be able to get you consistently under 1" groups of 5-shots @ 50 yds. My B22 consistently groups 1/2 to 3/4".
Another suggestion is to get rid (temporarily) the bipod and get some sort of "Sled" to give you consistent, firm and stable support. This will eliminate the variable of "rifle movement" while you focus on actually aiming.
Finally, as others have said, your rifle may 'prefer' one brand over another to the extent of actually doing better with one box vs another of the same brand. Once you're hitting around 1" regularly you can work on this. That will be something you'll have to determine thru extensive testing, first of several brands; then of various 'lots' as indicated on most brands by markings on the inside flaps of the boxes. There are many threads (you may have already found some) that describe these issues.
I'll stop now since much of this has been stated by others. I just wanted to see how you're doing.
Happy Holidays,
Buck
My suggestion is to get a better scope than the 4-12 before you decide to get a better rifle. The RAR should be able to get you consistently under 1" groups of 5-shots @ 50 yds. My B22 consistently groups 1/2 to 3/4".
Another suggestion is to get rid (temporarily) the bipod and get some sort of "Sled" to give you consistent, firm and stable support. This will eliminate the variable of "rifle movement" while you focus on actually aiming.
Finally, as others have said, your rifle may 'prefer' one brand over another to the extent of actually doing better with one box vs another of the same brand. Once you're hitting around 1" regularly you can work on this. That will be something you'll have to determine thru extensive testing, first of several brands; then of various 'lots' as indicated on most brands by markings on the inside flaps of the boxes. There are many threads (you may have already found some) that describe these issues.
I'll stop now since much of this has been stated by others. I just wanted to see how you're doing.
Happy Holidays,
Buck
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Thanks Buck for checking in. Since last posting, I have had the opportunity to experiment a bit, but then the Christmas holidays slowed me down.
I switched to the Diamondback just to try to another scope and see if it made a difference. Seeing as I think it did, that is good info. I have been looking at the Covenant and wondering what they are like. Good pricing on them.
"The RAR should be able to get you consistently under 1" groups of 5-shots @ 50 yds. My B22 consistently groups 1/2 to 3/4".
That is good to know. I have one page of targets (5 circles) where the groups are all under 1 inch but I would not say it is consistent.
I have an Anshcutz rifle coming this week. Eek! and have a Sightron x32 already for it. I decided on the bench gun scope before the gun. I think I will be selling the Ruger American with one of the two scopes I have, eventually. I bought it for bird hunting and target shooting. I did eat the odd bird and did hit some targets but I don't hunt much anymore. I do seem to really be enjoying the time at the range so decided to get a little more serious there. And the guys in the Benchrest club are a great bunch to hang with.
You mentioned trying a better rest/sled. I did exactly that last time out. A member lent me his Rock BR to try and it made a huge difference. I actually got decent groups (decent for me to date). Being an amateur hobby machinist, I am hoping to build something of course. Who would have thought retirement could be so busy!
As to ammo, I think that I read very early on that certain rifles like certain bullets. I think that I put too much emphasis on that data. Nice that you put it into perspective as to when I should be exploring it. I think I was coming around to that. I have been playing with many many different ammos but now realize that that is probably one of the last things I should be doing. I have so many other things influencing my groups that ammo is probably the least of my issues right now
Getting some of the other points down better, then worry about what a certain ammo does makes more sense, in hindsight.
I have also learned to appreciate trigger pull weight. After reading some on it, and then shooting the member's rifle (probably much less than 1lb weight), I see what a difference it can make. I tried lightening mine a bit as it is adjustable but don't have a gauge yet so only did a small adjustment. I can appreciate now, that being on a bipod, the force it takes to pull the trigger could easily affect my point of impact.
So, all in all, fun learning and seeing improvement.
Thanks
Shawn
I switched to the Diamondback just to try to another scope and see if it made a difference. Seeing as I think it did, that is good info. I have been looking at the Covenant and wondering what they are like. Good pricing on them.
"The RAR should be able to get you consistently under 1" groups of 5-shots @ 50 yds. My B22 consistently groups 1/2 to 3/4".
That is good to know. I have one page of targets (5 circles) where the groups are all under 1 inch but I would not say it is consistent.
I have an Anshcutz rifle coming this week. Eek! and have a Sightron x32 already for it. I decided on the bench gun scope before the gun. I think I will be selling the Ruger American with one of the two scopes I have, eventually. I bought it for bird hunting and target shooting. I did eat the odd bird and did hit some targets but I don't hunt much anymore. I do seem to really be enjoying the time at the range so decided to get a little more serious there. And the guys in the Benchrest club are a great bunch to hang with.
You mentioned trying a better rest/sled. I did exactly that last time out. A member lent me his Rock BR to try and it made a huge difference. I actually got decent groups (decent for me to date). Being an amateur hobby machinist, I am hoping to build something of course. Who would have thought retirement could be so busy!
As to ammo, I think that I read very early on that certain rifles like certain bullets. I think that I put too much emphasis on that data. Nice that you put it into perspective as to when I should be exploring it. I think I was coming around to that. I have been playing with many many different ammos but now realize that that is probably one of the last things I should be doing. I have so many other things influencing my groups that ammo is probably the least of my issues right now
Getting some of the other points down better, then worry about what a certain ammo does makes more sense, in hindsight. I have also learned to appreciate trigger pull weight. After reading some on it, and then shooting the member's rifle (probably much less than 1lb weight), I see what a difference it can make. I tried lightening mine a bit as it is adjustable but don't have a gauge yet so only did a small adjustment. I can appreciate now, that being on a bipod, the force it takes to pull the trigger could easily affect my point of impact.
So, all in all, fun learning and seeing improvement.
Thanks
Shawn
I thought I might update this thread, in case anyone was looking for an outcome...
If I was to answer the question in this thread, "Is it me?" I will say it definitely was/is me. Along the way, I was able to shoot a nice bench rest rig and did well so my setup or how I was using it was a factor.
But the light came a few weeks back after I shot my 223 Remington. I had moved my Vortex scope back to it (I sold the Ruger American with the Barska Scope) and wanted to sight in the Howa 223. I could not even hit the target sheet. So, WTF. I came home and stumbled across comments on bipod bounce. Typically, after a shot, I noted that my scope was no longer looking at my target. So for those with experience, it will be obvious, but for me, not so much. I have read "hold the stock firm into the shoulder" and "hold the stock lightly so at to let the firearm recoil" etc, lots of info out there. I always figured the rifle should do better.
I have decided on bipod bounce being one of many issues. Since I sold the RAR and had not been able to shoot the new Anschutz due to COVID restrictions, I could not prove it to myself. But in the 223, since the aimpoint after firing was not the same or even close to before, and both setups were similar, the RAR and Howa were on bipods, rubber feet, rubber or wooden bench, I figured this was probably my biggest issue.
This week, with the clubhouses opened again, I played around on bags instead of bipods, and paying attention to where the rifle was pointing after I shot. I guess this is why practice is so important, (duh!) but more so than just pulling the trigger, look at the result and factors around it. Everything has improved a lot. Since bipods are used tons, obviously there might be a few things to learn about them but as far as bags go, much better results.
And the Anschutz,..... great results, and still off of a bag. I am making (machining) a benchrest and not finished yet so thought I would try out the new 22lr anyways and it seems to hit where it is pointed. Imagine that !
So, once again, Thanks everyone for taking the time to provide input! It all helped guide me.
Cheers,
Shawn
If I was to answer the question in this thread, "Is it me?" I will say it definitely was/is me. Along the way, I was able to shoot a nice bench rest rig and did well so my setup or how I was using it was a factor.
But the light came a few weeks back after I shot my 223 Remington. I had moved my Vortex scope back to it (I sold the Ruger American with the Barska Scope) and wanted to sight in the Howa 223. I could not even hit the target sheet. So, WTF. I came home and stumbled across comments on bipod bounce. Typically, after a shot, I noted that my scope was no longer looking at my target. So for those with experience, it will be obvious, but for me, not so much. I have read "hold the stock firm into the shoulder" and "hold the stock lightly so at to let the firearm recoil" etc, lots of info out there. I always figured the rifle should do better.
I have decided on bipod bounce being one of many issues. Since I sold the RAR and had not been able to shoot the new Anschutz due to COVID restrictions, I could not prove it to myself. But in the 223, since the aimpoint after firing was not the same or even close to before, and both setups were similar, the RAR and Howa were on bipods, rubber feet, rubber or wooden bench, I figured this was probably my biggest issue.
This week, with the clubhouses opened again, I played around on bags instead of bipods, and paying attention to where the rifle was pointing after I shot. I guess this is why practice is so important, (duh!) but more so than just pulling the trigger, look at the result and factors around it. Everything has improved a lot. Since bipods are used tons, obviously there might be a few things to learn about them but as far as bags go, much better results.
And the Anschutz,..... great results, and still off of a bag. I am making (machining) a benchrest and not finished yet so thought I would try out the new 22lr anyways and it seems to hit where it is pointed. Imagine that !
So, once again, Thanks everyone for taking the time to provide input! It all helped guide me.
Cheers,
Shawn
