Experimental Ross Rifle

MTF

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An acquaintance in the States sent me a bunch of photos and a brief description of an experimental rifle, in the white, he picked up with a bunch of parts when the Savage plant closed. He is an older, very accomplished collector. Because it apparently was intended as a Ross product, he wants to see if a Canadian collector might want to buy it. He describes it as

overall length 53"
.303 caliber
5-round standard Ross magazine
30-1/2" bbl.
16 lb. weight
apparently a semi-auto action.

He wrote that the gun resembles a "US 1019 BAR in overall appearance and size", and that's the way it looks in the photos. I don't know much about rifles, but it's certainly unique for the WWI period.

He doesn't have a computer, and I don't know how to upload photos, but if you're interested, PM me and I'll email you photos. If you're further interested I'll give you Mike's phone number. David
 
We've had this conversation before. The gun is likely a WWI experimental Huot semi-automatic rifle. If he can give you some kind of definitive evidence, such as photos or markings, then you can give him an idea or valuation. Until then, these are just a friend of a friend of a friend discussions.

If he wants to sell, I'll offer $200 shipped to Canada. It is just another Ross until proven otherwise.
 
An acquaintance in the States sent me a bunch of photos and a brief description of an experimental rifle, in the white, he picked up with a bunch of parts when the Savage plant closed. He is an older, very accomplished collector. Because it apparently was intended as a Ross product, he wants to see if a Canadian collector might want to buy it. He describes it as

overall length 53"
.303 caliber
5-round standard Ross magazine
30-1/2" bbl.
16 lb. weight
apparently a semi-auto action.

He wrote that the gun resembles a "US 1019 BAR in overall appearance and size", and that's the way it looks in the photos. I don't know much about rifles, but it's certainly unique for the WWI period.

He doesn't have a computer, and I don't know how to upload photos, but if you're interested, PM me and I'll email you photos. If you're further interested I'll give you Mike's phone number. David

PM sent...
 
The basic Ross action lent itself very nicely to conversion to automatic operation. I would think it likely that Huot was not the only one to attempt such, just the only one to take it as far as he did (which was a VERY long way).

BTW, even if it IS a full-auto, a licensed Museum can import it.

If it's only a semi-auto..... then it has a 5-round magazine..... and it's Canadian...... and it's a genuine historic artifact. I would think some kind of official "permission" should be available. After all, we can still buy all the American-made M-16 clones we have the cash for.

"permission" indeed: for a Canadian to bring something Canadian back into Canada, we now need PERMISSION from Uncle Sam? Maybe we didn't do a good enough job on the "White House" 200 years ago!

Politicians and Bureaucrats: the REASON that Iceland deliberately AVOIDED having any kind of Government, apart from the Thing, for 300 years!
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MTF kindly emailed photos. Being on dialup, posting them is problematic.
However, this rifle is nothing whatsoever to do with a Huot.
It does incorporate some Mk. III Ross parts. Barrel, forend and magazine are obvious. If the receiver started life on the Plains of Abraham, it has been extensively modified, being extended to the rear.
The bolt/bolt carrier are sprung with an overhead recoil spring and guiderod not unlike an SVT/SKS et al. I cannot tell if it locks with a rotating bolthead or not. The cocking handle is affixed to the carrier at the right front.
No idea who, when or where.
Looks to be a one-off prototype. Remarkable piece of work!
 
Ross Rifle

To add to SMELLIE's post above, I have received your photos that you sent by e-mail.

This is definitely an interesting rifle, and it made use of an original 1910 Ross rifle as a start.

In any purchase of a firearm, unless there is a lot of documentation, the basic premise anyone should have is "Buy the rifle, not the story." Without documentation or provenance, you have to look at the cautious side of identification or purchase.

While it is possible that the conversion of this Ross to semi-automatic might have been done as an Engineering study by some Savage Engineers, or maybe it was done by someone and purchased for study by Savage, it is a questionable story.

I would think that this rifle was made AFTER WW2, or 1945. I could be wrong, and could be corrected on this, but there is one very obvious glaring photo that would suggest that the only connection Sir Charles Ross had with this rifle was to make it as an Original Mark III just before or during WWI.

However, I have learned that when it comes to the Ross Rifle, one should not be surprised at anything, and here is an example of that. Certainly, Ross did experiment with semi-automatic rifles, and there is a faint possibility that this could be one experimental model. With the placement of the trigger, it must have been awkward to fire.

I would like to see some close-up detailed pictures of the markings on the barrel, to see if any commercial proof marks are present.

On the right side of the Butt Stock is stamped the letters " H G ". This is a marking for the HOME GUARD, and would not have been present on a rifle that Sir Charles Ross would have requested Savage to make shortly after WWI.

While the Story is suspect, the rifle certainly exists. It is an interesting conversion of the Ross rifle to a semi-automatic, and certainly has a value to a Collector of such items as a Curiosity. An advanced Ross Rifle Collector would certainly be interested, and since the value of an original Ross M-10 Mark III is hovering in the $1000 range, I would say that this rifle, as a Curiosity, should bring a premium over that amount, possibly $1500 or more.
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Ross MkII / Ross MkIII Mag / BAR? / SVT 40? Looks like it could be a blow back system? I can't see any rotary lugs nor and lugs for the bolt to cant. For that matter where is the hammer to strike the firing pin? Seems to be no connection with the trigger and the rear of the bolt? It's possible the hex head bolt connects with the trigger spring perhaps allowing it to rise up and strike the firing pin (assuming it is a firing pin) but how does the vertical momentum become horizontal? Too many questions, but I can't get the feeling that this was a "personal project" to make a gun, unofficial just a project to see what they could do?

How long does your trigger finger have to be on this rifle? That's a big stretch to squeeze a round off while holding on the to the stock.

IMG_0001.jpg
 
Wow...if that is not a fascinating rifle, I don't know what is.

That is not a garden variety Bubba by any means.

Is the party claiming that was done by Savage?

Thanks much for posting those pics guys!

BTW, is it still in .303?

Has anyone to the owner's knowledge fired it?
 
The rifle uses a butt, forend, handguard, magazine, barrel, and barrel bands from a Mk. III Ross. H-dot-G-dot was used on 1914 Canadian Home Guard rifles.
The receiver is not an adapted Mk. III receiver.
That's the extent of its relationship to a Mk. III service rifle.
If you study the locking system, it uses a vertically sliding non-ferrous block set at a slight angle from 90 degrees. It does not use a rotating bolt.
This strikes me as being related to the Blish system, as used in the Thompson guns. There was experimentation done with the Blish system and rifle calibers.
I do not know who made up this rifle. I suspect the 1920s. Was the project related to Ross? I don't know. The machining looks like toolroom work, this suggests a serious shop. There is also evidence of handwork. Savage? Once again, I don't know.
 
Now, THAT is one baby I would love to spend an afternoon tearing apart!

After playing with Maxim's original prototype gun.... and Stens.... and Schmeissers..... and '42s..... and Brens........ and even an Armaguerra, I thought I had seen everything.

Obviously, I was mistaken!

I would REALLY like to know what's in her guts. I have a whole slice of raisin pie that sez that Mr. Chinn never saw this one.

I thank you for the photos.

Any way to get pix with the action drawn back, action half-open, looking down through the top? Tell us a LOT, those would. What about stripped? Or does anybody know how to strip the old girl? (I'll volunteer! Me! Me!)

Value? How do you value a one-off? "The value of an object is what it will bring." - legal maxim. It's worth a grand and a half of my money, anyway, but I'm pretty sure I would be out-bid if it came onto the market.

VERY nice.
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We've had this conversation before. The gun is likely a WWI experimental Huot semi-automatic rifle. If he can give you some kind of definitive evidence, such as photos or markings, then you can give him an idea or valuation. Until then, these are just a friend of a friend of a friend discussions.

If he wants to sell, I'll offer $200 shipped to Canada. It is just another Ross until proven otherwise.

Well, I take back my surly snappy retort. From looking at the pictures, it is not a Huot but definately an interesting Ross. I'll put $250 on the table and pay for the paperwork to get it across the border.
 
Yup, its definitely not a Huot. Aside from the glaring differences as seen in the pictures, the Huot was automatic only. It was considered before the Lewis was adopted. I believe there are only 5 Huots in existence, and all 5 are accounted for and in Canadian hands (I believe).

A bit more info from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huot_automatic_rifle
 
After seeing these photos, I would call it an experimental Blish-principle Thompson, using a lot of Ross parts.

Makes sense in a way. At the time this one was built, shortly after WW1, Rosses were cheap and EVERYBODY knew that they made truly excellent barrels.
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After seeing these photos, I would call it an experimental Blish-principle Thompson, using a lot of Ross parts.

Makes sense in a way. At the time this one was built, shortly after WW1, Rosses were cheap and EVERYBODY knew that they made truly excellent barrels.
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Why on earth would they have limited themselves to a 5 round magazine though?
 
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