F-Class "supports" question

[Richard338]

JKajfes,
As you say there are procedures to have the rules changed. I would like to see a set of rules agreed upon that leave more skill in the equation. I have never had anyone say to my face that they like the present rules and are proud to tell newcomers or outsiders of how it is done. Instead, I always hear "well I have to do what is allowed to be competitive, maybe we should change the rules". It is tough to change without hurting the elderly disabled people for whom the rules are intended. I just hate seeing young able-bodied guys using all of the equipment. Do what you like. If you enjoy it then great...

Like I said I have the choice of trying service conditions. I can't believe it could be as bad, because with a time limit you can't do as much ###ing around.

 

[jkajfes]

yes it's definitely your choice... Well... good luck with that!...
elderly disabled, ###ing around? ya got me on two of those the latter well if it'd guarantee me straight V's I'll certainly have to give it some thought! We're having fun man and lots of it, I'm sure all the young, abled body and straight guys in service can't wait for you to arrive and listen to how you're gonna want to revamp all they're rules for them to even it all out...

time limit? say you ever seen a 1000 yard full blown benchrest match where some guy like Bob Pastor could whip say 15 rounds down range in about 30 maybe 35 seconds that would all group under 5 inches. Absolutely no skill at all in that I suppose... he shoots f-class too but trouble is, he unforunately has to hold up a little because he's usually paired or shooting 3-up... quite a few podded guys here like Gordo shooting a whiz bang tube gun don't pay any attention to him or me for that matter... they just keep plunking their gear down and have at it. Gord's too busy beating us to be worrying about how much skill is in the equation...

 

[long bow]

Svc Rifle Shooting

Long shot...although you shoot well...you dont shoot well enough to kick everyones ass everytime.... The DCRA commitee chose to adjust the rules, make the changes, so should the the svc rifle shooter restrict himself to shooting plane rifles? Thats why they made changes. I would however, like to see a class for stock issue, or same as issue rifles. I agree that the private, and others who comes out to play, with an out of the rack c-7, is under gunned..
If you, as a Master, choose to shoot a stock rifle..so be it...your hands, however, are not tied to that platform. Its your choice. With the loss of DND ammo support, why should I buy factory match, or make match handloads, to fire down on a sub standard rifle..if I dont want to. The bottom line..you are able to shoot whatever platform you want...we now have choices. Just think how effective you could shoot with a tuned rifle..think about that. So. on a side note, how did you shoot in the McMillan match?
Over to you,,,

 

[Longshot]

It’s up to the respective rules committees to decide what’s in and what’s out.

Yes it is but it's up to the shooter to decide whether shooting with all this extra junk is really in the spirit of the match for him or her.Some people seem to need to win to feel good about themselves.I just like to shoot.Win or not,it's not a popularity match.I couldn't care less what people think.I take pride in my shooting skill...NOT the type of gear I have or how many #### nickles I've won.

If you love a particular discipline you will find a way to mentally get around the specific hurdles that are mind blocking you.

Is buying a fancy gun that pushes the limits of legality for any given match a good example of your own words ...or would extra practice that makes you more skillfull be a better example??

If not perhaps you really didn’t want to compete in that particular discipline..

Thanks for making my point exactly.If you come into a certain discipline and then try and change it to your advantage,they why the heck did you start there in the first place???

What you’re telling me is that it’s no different in your service condition matches. I didn’t think it would be any different.

It is different though because we care about people trying to game it.A couple of years ago we had some dudes show up and shoot a service rifle match with sniper rifles.They had G36's in thier trunks too,but decided that sniper rifles would do the trick.Of course they won a bunch of gongs on the deliberate matches and ended up winning the greenshot trophies.It was a travesty because that day we had a 16 year old shooting the same match for the first time with an AR.He would have won a few of those same greenshot trophies if it weren't for those guys using the bolt guns.Great intro to S.R. for him."Yeah those trophies you should have won went to some guys that should have known better".Unfortunately the director did nothing about the situation.A polite "those aren't the right type of rifles" would have sufficed.If that happens again you can bet your ass there will be 15 guys that tell them those guns aren't in the proper spirit of things.

I don’t think we’re going to throw it all out in favor of whipping spears down range from the 1000 yard markers. Sorry that graphite spear is illegal? You need to be whipping this cast iron 7 foot job. Wait a minute that blades too wide… You can’t wear those thongs and sandals… where’s your shirt?

No idea what your talking about.

 

[Longshot]

I knew you'd be lurking around here somewhere.

Long shot...although you shoot well...you dont shoot well enough to kick everyones ass everytime....

Did I say I kick everyones asses all the time??That's not what I meant.

Well lets see here.Lemme have a look at the Wiswell bowl.Hang on a sec.
Ok I see my name on there 6 times in the last 10 years....your's is....wait a sec...I have to go back a few more years to before I started shooting...ah yeah there you are in '91 and '94. Lemme ask you this.When you won this bad boy were you shooting a fancy gun or a stock rifle?

The DCRA commitee chose to adjust the rules, make the changes, so should the the svc rifle shooter restrict himself to shooting plane rifles? Thats why they made changes.

I disagree.They made the changes so the old guys that don't shoot so well and more can keep up and stay winning.Same reason why they are constantly adjusting the timing on the runs.

I would however, like to see a class for stock issue, or same as issue rifles. I agree that the private, and others who comes out to play, with an out of the rack c-7, is under gunned...

Yeah a different class would be a great idea.

With the loss of DND ammo support, why should I buy factory match, or make match handloads, to fire down on a sub standard rifle..if I dont want to.

My question is why do you feel you need to shoot factory match or match handloads?

Just think how effective you could shoot with a tuned rifle..think about that.

Well I seem to do just fine with a rat grade gun.I don't think it would be nearly as satisfying to win with a tricked out piece.I guess I'll never know.

So. on a side note, how did you shoot in the McMillan match? Over to you

My partner had a visit from Mickey Mouse.I shot OK I guess.18th overall.

 

[long bow]

Svc Rifle shooting

hahaha Just rattling your chain a little...didnt want your head to sweal too big.
You seem to have all the answers figured out..lol
Keep up the good work....
Speaking of accomplishments...How many times have you been to Bisley?
5 for me....
Perfection is the name of the game....and although elusive...I'll keep trying with my 16" rifle...which btw is a stock factory rifle...nothing hi-speed....just because I can...see you on the ranges...
Sorry to hear about Mickey....

 

[Bob Pastor]

Good Evening Gentlemen

Yes, I'll even include Mr. Richard 338.

These type of threads always appear very late in the Winter, when cabin fever attacks the smarter side of the brain. F Class, as shot in The Ontario Rifle Association, is by far the most difficult shooting experience I personally have encountered in my 44 years of competitive shooting. No, it's not as hard as TR shooting, Physically. I've shot TR and have the greatest regards for their skill with a rifle. In Ontario we shoot a minimum of two shooters to a target and at the Provincials we shoot three. That's almost three minutes before you get another shot. It's definitely NOT Benchrest. F Class shooters are shooting with TR Cadets and TR shooters of different capabilities. I've won two U.S. F Class Championships, Arizona and the 14th. Annual Candian/American Fullbore Championships. A Canadian Championship is much harder to win, especially in Ontario, because we don't string shoot.

Congratulations to Mr. Richard 338 for his overwhelming win at 1,000 yds. but I seriously doubt that he was competing with a dozen U.S. 1,000 yd. benchrest shooters. First of all we don't free recoil our rifles. The calibers we use have to be handled not free shot. Plus our X ring is 3". It's really not that easy for us to miss a 10 ring using the TR target.

However, if they were 1,000 yd. benchrest shooters, please give me a list of names and appropriate letters of scoulding shall be sent.

As to Leo's equipment: Leo is a good friend of mine and a world class shooter, in more disciplines than most of us could afford to even own the guns to compete. His equipment was not illegal. He was experimenting with a certain mechanical rest set up and it was merely challenged. Leo, with all the class of a world champion, decided not to push the advancement at this point. His type of personal CLASS only comes along once in a life time.

I don't buy the argument about equipment being the difference between a good shooter and winning. I've personally had my clock cleaned by a guy we call the Badger, because he's always in the hunt. He shoots a very old .223, off a bipod and what he does with that rifle is inspiring to watch.

I'm asked to help new and old shooters each year and I always tell them two things.

First : I've never lost a match in 44 years. They always look at me like I'm full of Poop, then I explain that, many people talk about competing but when you prepare for a match, pay your entry fee and cross that imaginery BS line and actually compete "You Win Automatically" because you only compete against YOUR best performance. The other way of winning is numerically. Some days your the bug and somedays your the windshield.

Secondly : "You can't buy your way into the winners circle" You have to learn your trade.

As if our shooting sports aren't under enough attacks from the politicians, we who are involved in competing should never disrespect any shooting discipline from within.

I, along with every F Class shooter in the ORA, would like to extent a warm invitation to Mr. Richard 338. Please come to our Provincial Championships this coming August. You will be treated kindly, with respect and be able to enjoy the friendly competition of some of the finest marksmen in the world.

Bob Pastor
"The Viper"

 

[Richard338]

Bob,
This thread was dead for months.
Thanks, I've been at the last two national competitions and seen you there.
I don't know what win you are talking about, I haven't won anything yet (well I did win the "Historical rifle match" last year).

I'm a friend of Leo's and since you were at last year's nationals I'm surprised that you don't remember that his absence was due to this issue and all the hard feelings on all sides. I actually don't care what equipment he uses.

I understand the whole business of having enough problems from non-shooters. Actually the excessive equipment and benchrest complaints I had are not from the nationals, but the Quebec provincials. We do have guys like Jackie Chin come up and shoot free-recoil. He is a 100-200 yard benchrest shooter. I have photos of other guy's rifles in big aluminum sleds with jacks attached to the back end (again none of this stuff appeared at nationals).

I enjoy shooting regardless, and have even gone down to Albany the last two years. I just hate telling friends or people at work about how our competitions are run and hearing how little they respect it.
You might get your wish, I find out in 2 weeks if I'm moving to Ontario.

 

[Longshot]

I've personally had my clock cleaned by a guy we call the Badger, because he's always in the hunt. He shoots a very old .223, off a bipod and what he does with that rifle is inspiring to watch.

But...not insipring enough to get you to do it.

Secondly : "You can't buy your way into the winners circle" You have to learn your trade.

This is utter poop.I've seen it on more than one occasion.

 

[Longshot]

hahaha Just rattling your chain a little...didnt want your head to sweal too big.

I wouldn't have it any other way

Speaking of accomplishments...How many times have you been to Bisley?
5 for me....

I been to Bisley 3 times.Unfortunately none of them were for shooting

Perfection is the name of the game....and although elusive...I'll keep trying with my 16" rifle...which btw is a stock factory rifle...nothing hi-speed....just because I can...see you on the ranges...
Sorry to hear about Mickey....

I got nothing against that rifle either.Nearly the same as what I got.You just need a trade in on your legs and lungs,then you'd be back in the game.

Mickey sucks!!

 

[Leeper]

You know, before I shot "F" class, most of my competing was in close range BR. Early on, there was great variation in rifles and techniques. Later, the formula for a winning rifle was pretty well established and, while there were variations in the name brands, the essence of the rifle and other equipment was consistent. What didn't exist to any great extent, as I recall, was the incessent whining about other shooter's equipment that we see in "F" class today. People were interested in other rifles and interested in other's shooting techniques but those who were shooting Remington actioned rifles didn't whine because their neighbour was shooting a Stolle.
"F" or Farquharson class was designed not only to extend the shooting life of competitors but to inject some new blood into long range shooting and encourage experimentation. George was interested in rifle accuracy and wanted to see other types of rifles compete with the type of rifle he was used to shooting.
On those occasions (all too infrequent) when I do manage a win, I do not strut around looking down my nose at those who might have been shooting equipment which was a little more spendy than mine. When I lose, I don't sit in a corner and pout because the winner shot free recoil, or shot a 6BR, or used an adjustable rear rest. I might pout because I did a poor job of wind doping on that day or, as happened on one occasion, I crossfired, but not because I didn't like the winner's shooting technique. Regards, Bill.

 

[island]

I know it's a year+ later, but without meaning to raise this thread from the dead, I thought I'd point out that the original answer to the original question was "no". I monopod on the rear end can't be used, as rule 11.15 states in part:

"(d) No portion of the rifle's butt or pistol grip (including any integral or attached jack) shall rest on the ground or touch any surface not visibly deformable by trigger pressure. Any rear rest employed shall not be attached, clamped, or held onto the rifle in any way, nor shall it contain an integral windage adjustment mechanism"

To mean this means a rear monopod (attached to the rifle) is not permitted, as it is both touching the ground (an attached "jack") and clamped onto the rifle.

 

[JW Precision]

I just went to a comp. at Mon's last weekend. It was the first time I shot at anything past 300 yds. The targets went to 800. I honestly didn't care about anything because I was having too much fun. I learned so much and I just can't wait to get out there and do it again. Shooting at distance for me just brings my whole hobby some meaning. To actually see what a firearm is capable of just turns my crank to no end. I think everyone should just shoot whatever they want, the best of their ability and don't even look to see what anyone else has. Whatever the out come so be it. But if a person really needs to have a win for satisfaction, who am I to knock him for it. I personally don't, does that make me a bubba shooter? I love this sport and my tastes will be different than everyone elses. I'm right, you are right. Lets get to the range and have some fun. A big Thanks to Gord O. for introducing me to this great long range stuff. The Lord's Sword aka Green Monster did what I asked it to do, not all of what it wanted and could do.