Fair Weather Waterfowl Shotgun

BigUglyMan

BigUglyMan

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So...after my last big go round of waterfowling I got to feeling that life in the blind would just be better if I had the option of taking out a fine old shotgun on those nice days. Honestly, I had such a good time banging down geese with Dad's old Model 21 I really felt like I should have one. After all, this whole hunting thing is a bit of a throwback activity anyhow so why not? But the real question is...what gun? My brother ended up with the 21 and, frankly, short of rolling him in a carpet and stuffing him in the trunk of a Buick I'm not getting my hands on it. I also can't get myself to the point where I can justify the money it would cost to have a Model 21 (and really, the only reason I would even want a 21 is because that's what Dad had, and if it's not his gun who really cares, right?) so I'm in a bit of a quandary. I really feel like I need a double...but which one? I want something vintage, I know that much. Fixed chokes don't hurt my feelings...I'll pay the premium to use Tungsten-Matrix for those days. The real issue is I know #### about vintage American doubles other than names and barely more about English and European ones. Really not my wheelhouse. I know that I've seen some ugly guns at gunshows...lots of guns that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. But when I see a gun in good shape I don't know what is good and what is better and what is anything close to a fair price.

Basically I need a grown up! Where do I start? What are the diamonds in the rough? What's overpriced?

Help me, brothers and sisters!

This is what started me down this dark path. I'm sure you guys understand now.
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If you are willing to pay for tungsten than pretty much anything works. From 300 bucks double from tradex and up.

I had a bss that i sold on ee here for around 800 years ago, maybe something you can look into if you dont mind a well made and balanced blue whale.
 
I feel your pain my dad hunted with a old Greener Side by Side. He shot that thing like a pro. I've had my eye out for one. I'm going to keep looking. Just something about how a double barrel swings in the Duck Blind
 
B.U.M. First I like the way you think. I also like that German gun, BTW. But I'll stick to your criteria for the moment and talk about American guns.

I'm assuming you don't want to break the bank. And yet style and class are desired along with the ability to handle the appropriate loads of TM (I have boxes of #3's just for the same purpose).

I'm going to have to go with Gunsaholic's suggestion (Brian, nice to see you posting...we've missed you). I'd say a Fox....for value a 12 gauge Sterlingworth or spend a bit more and dig up an A grade. If you find one in good condition (reasonably good barrels with lots of barrel wall thickness, as well as tight and on face) all you really need to do after buying it is have the stock glass bedded. After 100 years, that wood needs help. It will be softer from absorption of oil and it will have shrunk away from the metal. So it will need a little re-enforcement to handle the heavier loads you will want to be using for geese. Try to find a Philly made gun, especially if you are getting a Sterlingworth. Just better made.

Small bore Foxes get a bit spendy (I just sold one) but keep your eyes open and you should be able to find a nice Philly Fox 12 gauge for well under $1000. I sold an A grade about three years ago for around $800 IIRC.

There was an interesting looking Remington C grade on the EE a couple weeks ago. A little pricier but you'd have a damn rare and well made gun. Can't speak to the barrels of that one. Only other American gun I would consider for the use you describe is a Ithaca NID.

All these guns would need to be glass bedded. Otherwise you risk a cracked or broken stock. Assuming good bores and no pitting, the damage that will happen from using modern loads with a lead substitute like TM is not barrels bursting from high pressure....it's broken stocks. Goes without saying.....no steel, no hard shot.

Remember now, only thing absorbing recoil on those beauties is the weight of the gun and your shoulder. So if it's really going to be a goose/waterfowl gun, buy the heaviest you find that is in good shape. With Fox, that means #1 weight barrels.

I have a 1909 vintage Fox A grade for just such occasions.

 
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A Browning BSS would be a great choice for waterfowl hunting. A 12ga has some weight to it to help soak up some of the recoil from the heavy duck loads, and they aren’t that fancy that you would worry to much about putting the odd scratche on one. Also very well made, there not that hard to find on the EE.
 
fishslinger said:
A Browning BSS would be a great choice for waterfowl hunting. A 12ga has some weight to it to help soak up some of the recoil from the heavy duck loads, and they aren’t that fancy that you would worry to much about putting the odd scratche on one. Also very well made, there not that hard to find on the EE.
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Not really a vintage American gun but I agree, it would work. But it's not in the same league of gun as a Fox, never mind the M21 he's kinda trying to replace.
 
I dunno much about sxs doubles
except once apon a time I had a beautiful Spanish sxs 10 gauge
the firing pin broke so I had a gun smith fix it
he didn't set the triggers properly and the dang thing doubled on me unexpectedly
it split my forehead wide open 17 stitches and I had a major concussion, and amnesia for 8 days
I spent 11 days in the university hospital in Edmonton AB
I never shot that gun again
but still have a fondness for a classy looking SXS double shoots gun
but in my mind a good Browning sxs
or a good Churchill sxs
or AYA sxs
would be my choices
 
3macs1 said:
I would totally agree. My only concern is tungsten. Bismuth yes but not sure on the other in a old sxs
Cheers
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Kent TM is very close to Lead in hardness.

In the early days of tungsten there were two types, Kent TM (Tungsten Matrix) which binds the tungsten with a polymer and Tungsten/Iron blends which were as hard as steel. The tungsten/iron blends are long gone. Kent TM is as safe as lead in old barrels. What you have to be careful of is that it is just about all loaded in heavy, waterfowl type loads....so your stock better be able to handle it.

The Fox I posted a picture of is choked Full and Full. Lots of TM down those pipes.
 
Im on board with the suggestion of a Browning BSS. That is of course if you dont mind a gun of that vintage. The BSS is heavy enough to comfortably shoot and robust enough to handle waterfowl loads
 
Ahh yes, the censorship police alive and well.
Ben, My apology for sidetracking your thread... was not my intention, but to those that I have to explain .
They simply wouldnt understand.

Suhl in the former East Germany has been in the making of firearms since 1318.
Sauer is a top brand, but again I digress it isnt American.

Canvasback, I certainly know my Geography and while not an expert on all firearms I do appreciate the Model 21 ,the Model 24 the Beretta SilverHawk and of course a Simpson Suhl that may have come off the assembly line at Sauer and stamped Simpson Suhl or otherwise.

The point I missed due to lack of ...was suggesting a Model 21 for the Bue Bird days in the field and the pumpgun for when the wind is blowing the rain sideways at 25knots.

Best Regards and B U M I am sure what ever you decide will fill the table with bountiful Water Fowl.

Rob
 
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OP - I don't know if O/U's are within the scope of consideration... If so, you could probably get your hands on a 50's vintage Browning Superposed with a 3 in chamber. (These beefier magnum actions were used also in the skeet and trap guns, albeit with 2 3/4 in chambers.) These 3 in guns were used with 3 in lead shot shells for waterfowling , and would be typically fully choked. However, the barrels aren't chrome lined, so it wouldn't be too much of an effort to ream them to IC or LM, and use steel shot.
I picked one of these guns up a few years ago for well under 1000$, and it gets regular use.
 
canvasback said:
Kent TM is very close to Lead in hardness.

In the early days of tungsten there were two types, Kent TM (Tungsten Matrix) which binds the tungsten with a polymer and Tungsten/Iron blends which were as hard as steel. The tungsten/iron blends are long gone. Kent TM is as safe as lead in old barrels. What you have to be careful of is that it is just about all loaded in heavy, waterfowl type loads....so your stock better be able to handle it.

The Fox I posted a picture of is choked Full and Full. Lots of TM down those pipes.
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Thank you for the clarification. My experiences has only been with the harder than hell stuff
I do bismuth reloads in my old guns
Cheers
 
cosmic said:
OP - I don't know if O/U's are within the scope of consideration... If so, you could probably get your hands on a 50's vintage Browning Superposed with a 3 in chamber. (These beefier magnum actions were used also in the skeet and trap guns, albeit with 2 3/4 in chambers.) These 3 in guns were used with 3 in lead shot shells for waterfowling , and would be typically fully choked. However, the barrels aren't chrome lined, so it wouldn't be too much of an effort to ream them to IC or LM, and use steel shot.
I picked one of these guns up a few years ago for well under 1000$, and it gets regular use.
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I've got a couple of Superposeds already...a 12 and a 20. Both 2.75" guns but that's no big deal to me.

I should clarify, this really is a search for something vintage that was well built with "old-world" craftsmanship. Doesn't necessarily have to come from the Old World, but I'm not opposed to it either. As I said before, I'm a bit of an ignoramous on the subject. Couldn't tell a C grade Parker from a V, can't read proof marks without Google and I pretty much limit out at telling a side lock from a box lock! Maybe I was being generous when I said "a bit" above!

So maybe I should flesh out more what I'm after. Double triggers make me happiest, but I recognize that some guys feel that they are better suited to a straight stocked gun and I think that for a water fowler a pistol grip will make the days shooting more manageable. I, like any good ignoramous, like a good name, though I recognize that some guns without a big name are still incredibly fine (see my mystery German). Then I have to consider that I'm not an average sized bloke and in this world (perhaps slightly less for waterfowl than upland) fit is king. Case in point, I held a nice old Sauer last weekend and my thumb rested firmly against my nose - no Bueno! Maybe it's a good idea to make a point of handing as many of these things as possible to see what works. No sense falling in love if it hasn't got the LOP to work for a primate like me!
 
Thanks for the clarification B.U.M.

If you are determined to stay in the SxS world and you want "old world craftsmanship", that rules out most affordable guns built after WWII. And for your purposes you should be looking for a 12 gauge that weighs in the range of 7 pound 8 ounces and up. To get a heavy 12 built after WWII, you will likely be swinging a club, in comparison to your father's M21.

While there are English guns that fit the bill, the vast majority were made as "game" guns....lightweight 12's. A much smaller number were built as wildfowlers or pigeon guns, which is what you would want. When you move out of American guns, it much more important to understand the features and qualities that you need in your gun, rather than looking for a "name" you recognize.

Your idea of picking up as many as you can is good. As would be to learn some of the features "better" quality English and Continental guns of that era have, the better to recognize a quality made gun when you find one.

Double triggers, for the most part, were not really perfected until after WW11....I would stay away from almost any pre war gun with a single trigger.

And finally, what's your preferred LOP. There are good ways of managing that in older guns that don't resort to hideous wood extensions.
 
FLHTCUI said:
Your an Evil Man there canvasback, but with good taste.
BUM, a model 21 like dads is a hard one to chase, but a Remington 870 is one that will take what ever weather that you can dish out will take the ducks and geese with ease and never miss a stroke of the action.
Might take away from the Harley Maintenance fund though.
Nice brace of birds BUM, very nice.
Rob
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And yet again the suggestion of an 870 finds its way into a thread from an OP looking for a “classic double”. :jerkit:

In case you are confused the tube under the barrel on an 870 is a magazine tube not a bottom barrel! Hell I own over unders and even I’ll be the first to say they don’t fall under the category of “classic doubles” in my opinion.....and there is nothing “classic” or “double” about an 870 except maybe double the price of what they are actually worth.
 
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