FINALLY Mossberg 715T/P magazine capacity decision...!!!

LeeRoberts said:
I think it should be up to the RCMP to send everyone with a PAL a written letter when something becomes prohibited , not everyone has a computer or internet and can not check their website, if a law changes they should be responsible to let the public know, not the public go asking whats new, I have a 25 round 715T mag and will continue to use it , i used it today actually , until i get a written letter from the rcmp stating its now prohibited ,far as i'm concerned its legal
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Right on! I'll be using mine tomorrow and I doubt the world will end and the sky will not fall.
 
Kryogen said:
yup, but now they know and you might be in for a little roadside inspection.
tinfoil hat.
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If the RCMP are able to tell who I am, where I live and what car I drive via a post made on CGN and then track me down and try and lay a little butthurt on all the while not being able to actually catch a real threat to society... ;)
 
slayer408 said:
Hi everyone, So, finally fed up with the lack of answers on ANY forum pertaining to whether or not the 715t magazine is prohibited or not due to the (unwanted, IMO) introduction of the 715P into Canada. I wrote a letter to the RCMP Specialized Firearm Support Services for an answer.
This is the response....


Good morning,

RCMP - Specialized Firearm Support Services (RCMP-SFSS) is the legal classification policy centre. I am authorized to speak on the subject of firearm legal classification issues on behalf of SFSS Section and the Canadian Firearms Program (CFP).

Let me identify myself and my job function to you. My name is William Etter. I hold the job position title of Chief Firearms Technologist, in the Specialized Firearms Support Services which is the technical authority in the subject area of assigning the applicable legal class to all firearms, devices and prohibited ammunition.

Your correspondence and the questions you posed to the Firearms Program have been forwarded to me to me for a response.

The Specialized Firearms Support Services Section is a component of the Firearms Investigative and Enforcement Services Directorate, RCMP - Canadian Firearms Program.

QUESTION
I have a question concerning the status of the 25 round magazine which is currently being sold with the Mossberg 715T semi auto 22 lr. carbine.
Recently Mossberg has introduced into the U.S.A. (only) at this point a 715P semi auto 22 lr. pistol which apparently uses the same 25 round magazines as the 715T.
My question is, since the 715P has not been introduced into Canada at this point does that make the current 25 round magazine for the 715T carbine prohibited?
Without anyone having a definitive answer to date, I would just like some clarification on the matter if possible.
Thank you for your time,

ANSWER

The Mossberg 715T firearm model is manufactured in both rifle and handgun configurations. The magazine is interchangeable between the two configurations and is considered a dual purpose handgun / rifle magazine and the more restrictive handgun cartridge capacity limit applies.

Because handguns are limited to a ten shot magazine capacity in accordance with the CC PART III, S. 84, Regulations PART 4 Para 3. (1) (b) "The Former Cartridge Magazine Control Regulations", this limits the magazine capacity for the dual purpose rifle / handgun cartidge magazine to ten (10) shots, despite the firearm being designed to use rim-fire ammunition.

The firm Mossberg consulted with RCMP-SFSS in 2010 & 2012 and were advised that the importation of a "handgun" version of the 715T into North America would complicate their business model due to cartridge magazine issues under Canadian Law. They viewed this outcome as counter-productive and discontinued development (by CBC in Brazil) of the handgun (restricted version) completely. It was reported by Mosberg that no examples were brought to North America. (FRT # 131172)

The matter lay fallow until late 2013 when there was further discussion at the corporate Mossberg HQ level and a decision was made to re-instate the plan and continue to market and sell the CBC Manufactured, Brand name Mossberg, Model 715P (Pistol) firearm and the 715T firearm.

It should be noted that the Mossberg 715T is nothing but a "Dress-up" tactical kit surrounding a Mossberg 702 Plinkster, implicating the same 25 shot cartridge magazine sold for use with the 702 Plinkster series of firearms.

Mossberg Sales and Marketing Branch were advised of this problem and the Canadian cartridge magazine implications well before manufacture and distribution of the 715P firearm took place in 2013. A Mossberg Corporate decision was made to proceed with the sales and marketing in North America of this "Pistol" in 2013.

SPECIFIC QUESTION

My question is, since the 715P has not been introduced into Canada at this point does that make the current 25 round magazine for the 715T carbine prohibited?

ANSWER

Yes. The 25 shot cartridge magazine for the entire family of Mossberg Mossberg Model -715T, Mossberg 715P (restricted) Handgun and Model 702 Plinkster series of firearms, must be reduced to not more than 10 shots of the kind or type for which the cartridge magazine was designed.
Mossberg is fully aware of these facts and have a work around solution (which was revealed to me) consisting of replacing all 25 shot cartridge magazines in the hands of Canadian owners with a ten (10) shot magazine. I cannot speak for Mossberg; however, they are aware of the problem and have a contingency plan.
For further information from the appropriate authority on Mossberg’s “plan” to replace cartridge magazines, contact your Mossberg stocking dealer.

I hope this helps.

William Etter

William (Bill) Etter
Chief Firearms Technologist
Specialized Firearms Support Services
Firearms Investigative & Enforcement Services Directorate
RCMP - CFP
Specialized Policing Services

613-993-6684
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An where is the OFFICIAL public notice from the RCMP?
 
I'm pretty sure there is more than one store in my town selling the 715T with the 25 round magazine. Next time I'm there I will check to see if they are pinned but not long ago I held one and the person behind the counter told me it was a 25 round mag.
 
SparkOfLight said:
If the RCMP are able to tell who I am, where I live and what car I drive via a post made on CGN and then track me down and try and lay a little butthurt on all the while not being able to actually catch a real threat to society... ;)
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They easily can, but they will probably not :p
 
Would an option be anyone owning a 25 round magazine be grandfathered as the pistol did not come in till after. The law did exist prior, but do to change, new pistol version, what would happen if owners of the rifles currently apply to be grandfathered. Neither the gun owner or Mossberg would have to absorb any loss. Like the 12 (6) handgun solution when everything first changed to cover barrel lengths. The magazines was obtained lawfully at the time,and the same solution could be applied to the swiss arms issue.
Easier fix then making people criminals
 
" For the first time . a civilized nation has gained full gun control.
Our streets will be safer . our police more efficient and other countries will follow us into the future "
...Adolf Hitler
 
slayer408 said:
...


ANSWER

The Mossberg 715T firearm model is manufactured in both rifle and handgun configurations. The magazine is interchangeable between the two configurations and is considered a dual purpose handgun / rifle magazine and the more restrictive handgun cartridge capacity limit applies.

Because handguns are limited to a ten shot magazine capacity in accordance with the CC PART III, S. 84, Regulations PART 4 Para 3. (1) (b) "The Former Cartridge Magazine Control Regulations", this limits the magazine capacity for the dual purpose rifle / handgun cartidge magazine to ten (10) shots, despite the firearm being designed to use rim-fire ammunition.

...


SPECIFIC QUESTION

...

I hope this helps.

William Etter

William (Bill) Etter
Chief Firearms Technologist
Specialized Firearms Support Services
Firearms Investigative & Enforcement Services Directorate
RCMP - CFP
Specialized Policing Services

613-993-6684
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Here is the law: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-462/page-2.html#h-4


PART 4

PROHIBITED DEVICES


Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 9

Former Cartridge Magazine Control Regulations

...

3. (1) Any cartridge magazine

(a) that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in
  • (i) a semi-automatic handgun that is not commonly available in Canada,
  • (ii) a semi-automatic firearm other than a semi-automatic handgun,


(b) that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada.


(2) Paragraph (1)(a) does not include any cartridge magazine that
(a) was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that

  • (i) is chambered for, or designed to use, rimfire cartridges,
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The RCMP does not have the authority to re-write laws, nor to reclassify cartridge magazines. And hence, the Mr. William Etter gave his interpretation of the law.

Moreover, Mr. William Etter gave his best spin on the situation in an attempt to justify his conclusion in his answer to your e-mail.



Here is my take on this:

First, we need to examine the law itself, and not a version of it modified by Mr. William Etter.

Here is Mr. Etter's version:

Because handguns are limited to a ten shot magazine capacity in accordance with the CC PART III, S. 84, Regulations PART 4 Para 3. (1) (b) "The Former Cartridge Magazine Control Regulations", this limits the magazine capacity for the dual purpose rifle / handgun cartidge magazine to ten (10) shots, despite the firearm being designed to use rim-fire ammunition.
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Here is the actual law:

(b) that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada.
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They are not the same. The "and" clause is very important in this case.

The Mossberg 715T firearm model is manufactured in both rifle and handgun configurations. The magazine is interchangeable between the two configurations and is considered a dual purpose handgun / rifle magazine and the more restrictive handgun cartridge capacity limit applies.
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Mr. Etter almost implied that the 715T 25 rounds mag's were prohibited from the get-go. Of course, that wasn't the case, otherwise, this issue would not have surfaced. If that was the case, the 715T 25 rounds magazines wouldn't have been sold separately or together with the firearm in Canada. But because they were originally designed for rimfire semi-automatic rifles, many Canadians have them now.

Although, now, the 715T 25 rounds magazine are manufactured for use in a rimfire semi-automatic handgun, they should still be legal since these magazines were originally designed for rimfire semi-automatic rifles. In other words, if they were legal before, they should still be legal now.

It appears to me, that at least the people who wrote the law are more reasonable in this case. It's unreasonable to have legal firearm magazines turn into illegal firearm magazines due to new legal firearms introduced in the future. Additionally, my hunch is that they could have taken into account the fact that generally, rifles cartridges are optimized for rifle applications, and likewise for handguns.
 
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I am dealing with this with the BX25x2 magazines. However the charger isnt produced anymore and the ruger packaging and website only list it for the 10/22 rifle family. They do not list the Charger pistol at all.
My court date is in Aug.
 
DVX said:
What are you rambling about? Mossberg is not responsible for our backwards laws. Why should they build their business model around Canadian gun laws?
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Mossberg isn't responsible for our stupid gun laws, but there's no reason why they should export this useless, fugly pistol to Canada when they know it will make a bunch of their previous customers unhappy and potentially criminals.
 
Mr. Etter almost implied that the 715T 25 rounds mag's were prohibited from the get-go. Of course, that wasn't the case, otherwise, this issue would not have surfaced. If that was the case, the 715T 25 rounds magazines wouldn't have been sold separately or together with the firearm in Canada. But because they were originally designed for rimfire semi-automatic rifles, many Canadians have them now.

Although, now, the 715T 25 rounds magazine are manufactured for use in a rimfire semi-automatic handgun, they should still be legal since these magazines were originally designed for rimfire semi-automatic rifles. In other words, if they were legal before, they should still be legal now. Shut up and use your 25 round mags WTF, wake up RCMP and MOSSGERG f-ked up something like 40,000 mags in Canada forget it they figure people are stupid enought to turn them in let them we'll give them 10 rounders ya right
 
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