I knew this would happen, it seems inevitable on this forum. Every time someone brings up big bores the 45-70 crowd chime in...............This thread specifically stated cartridges for African big game and still the 45-70 crowd speaks up. Gentlemen, regardless of how much you want it to be, the 45-70 Gov't is not a big bore cartridge and most certainly not a cartridge designed for African big game. It is a left over black powder cartridge designed for the US military in the Springfield single shot rifle and was included in several leverguns over the years. Let me repeat that it is not now nor has it ever been an African big game cartridge, nor classed as a big bore when discussing such rifles and cartridges.
Firing cartridges designed for African game for no good reason.
- Thread starter rci2950
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BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I think we could be discussing pot pie and the 45-70 crowd would chime in.
Yep Hoyt, and so is my 45-110, both of which can be safely driven to 5000 ft/lbs with 500 grn bullets, meeting the requirements of a real big bore African cartridge. The 45-70 however cannot..........
The 45 basic case as well as the 45-110 and 45-120 can all be safely loaded to equal the 450 NE, thus making them true big bores. Whether or not they were ever actually used on African big game I cannot say, but they certainly meet the threshold.
As much as I love my 45/70 it is a bear gun not a cape buffalo gun. Once I decided I need to hunt the cape buffalo I bought my 458 wm.
I hand load for both and have played with starting loads to max loads. There are similarities and possibly some over lap between the 2 but a 45/70 is not and will never be a 458 wm
I do believe the 45/70 is capable of taking all the big 6 however when hunting mean animals that can out weight cars the govt comes up short on case length and stopping power
That said I'd love to use my double 45/70 on warthog and some plains game but ill most likely bring my 300 wm to go with my 458 wm
I hand load for both and have played with starting loads to max loads. There are similarities and possibly some over lap between the 2 but a 45/70 is not and will never be a 458 wm
I do believe the 45/70 is capable of taking all the big 6 however when hunting mean animals that can out weight cars the govt comes up short on case length and stopping power
That said I'd love to use my double 45/70 on warthog and some plains game but ill most likely bring my 300 wm to go with my 458 wm
The Original Poster's question was seeking suggestions for a bigger rifle than what he was currently using, and wondering about recoil and bullet performance from larger heavier bullets on smaller game animals.
The Original Poster didn't specifically ask about big bore cartridges OR African game cartridges but he did specifically mention coyotes, groundhogs, bear, and whitetail deer.
The OP did specifically ask about the 375H&H and the 416, so it would be safe to assume that the OP did not mean to limit the conversation to "big bore" rifles since the 375 is not one.
The OP said he is not interested in the 45-70.
Those are all facts. And yet the conversation has become a pishing match between proponents of the 45-70 and "big bore aAfrican game cartridges". Both of which are off-topic.
The Original Poster didn't specifically ask about big bore cartridges OR African game cartridges but he did specifically mention coyotes, groundhogs, bear, and whitetail deer.
The OP did specifically ask about the 375H&H and the 416, so it would be safe to assume that the OP did not mean to limit the conversation to "big bore" rifles since the 375 is not one.
The OP said he is not interested in the 45-70.
Those are all facts. And yet the conversation has become a pishing match between proponents of the 45-70 and "big bore aAfrican game cartridges". Both of which are off-topic.
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Hey, thanks for the history lesson on the old 45/70. I'm sure you've schooled us all about stuff we didn't know about the 45/70 <sarcasm>. Seems you have a bit of a hot button there re the 45/70. When I made my comment about shooting hot 45/70 loads in the Ruger #3, the conversation had sort of morphed at that point into a discussion about recoil, and specifically in the Ruger fallingblocks,not about African cartridges. I didn't see any comment where someone said, "Oh, get a 45/70; it's a classic African cartridge!"
The hoary old .375H&H is a classic, although extremely dated, African cartridge for thin skinned dangerous game, but loads of people on this side of the pond have adopted it for moose, big bears, etc. But it's not a big bore in any sense of the word. The 45/70 is, in the technical sense, having....you know...a big bore and all. I lived in Africa for four years; if I'd have needed something with a lot of power and I'd have had my Ruger in 45/70 with me (as well as my loading equipment), I would have been perfectly content. FYI, what I did use as my "big bore" was a 16 guage shotgun with Brenneke slugs
I think you've drawn an arbitrary line in the sand when you say that something is worthy to be declared a "big bore" or not, sir.
"Let me repeat that it is not now nor has it ever been an African big game cartridge, nor classed as a big bore when discussing such rifles and cartridges." <<<--- Thanks for clearing this up for all of us poor misguided 45/70 owners.
Jeez.
When it comes to African big-bores the line got
drawn a long time ago. Over fourty caliber, over 2000 fps with a bullet of over .300 SD which usually works out to 5000 fps of energy. The 45/70 doesn't even come close.
drawn a long time ago. Over fourty caliber, over 2000 fps with a bullet of over .300 SD which usually works out to 5000 fps of energy. The 45/70 doesn't even come close.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
The 45-70 doesn't need to match 5000 ft.lbs. to take down the big critters, just a hunter that can deliver the shot where it counts using appropriate loads to do the job & in a rifle stout enough to handle the pressures. (35,000-39,000 C.U.P. for the Ruger No.1)
Examples of loads for dangerous critters in close quarters to 80 yds.:
*500 gr. Lyman hardcast RN over 56.0 gr. Varget nets just under 1800 fps. The SD of this boolit is .341 & pressure at 35,900.
*500 gr. Hornady jacketed RN over 53.1 gr. IMR 3031 goes about 1750 fps. with an SD of .341 as well & pressure at 32,700.
*405 Lyman hardcast FP over 51.0 gr. RX7 goes just under 2000 fps. with an SD of .276 & pressure of 36,800.
These loads for a Ruger No.1 would serve a confident, skilled African hunter quite well. For North American shooting on big-ass game, they are more than suitable at sensible ranges.
Gun writer Phil Spangenberger dumped a nice Cape Buff back in 1995 on a 20 yd. running shot using a Pedersoli Kodiak Mk IV in .45-70 using a Garrett Cartridges load consisting of a 415 gr. hardcast boolit
pushed at 1735 fps. for a muzzle energy of 2755 ft. lbs.
Who the fook is Phil Spangenberger ye might ask?
http://www.wildgunsleather.com/philspangenberger.htm
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Using a 45-70 in Africa is a stunt. Always has been. Sure, it can work, but it can also go horribly wrong and get you and your PH badly stomped on and torn up. And it's more likely to go bad than well. I love the 45-70, but Phil Spangenberger and Brian Pearce, as accomplished gunwriters as they are, are still lucky that things went as well as they did.
The .458 Win took decades to live down a poor reputation, earned with loads that were still producing more than those limp wristed 45-70 loads. We shot some buffalo with 30 calibers just for hellery but it was a stunt too. If your buddy wants to talk about killing Buffalo send him over. I don't think I'll ever get sick of talking about Buffalo killing, but shooting blanks off horses interests me not at all.
- Location
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True, but so many have paid the price over the years using much heavier duty rifles on big uglies because of lack of skills or unseen dangers in the bush. Check out the thousands of Big 5 critters bagged by 6.5 x54's & 7x57's and the like. Careful, sure & skilled shooting with projectiles that proved their worth time and time again.
Check out as well what proficient handgun hunters have been doing on the biggies over the years with "lowly" cartridges such as the .44 Magnum & .454 as well as the .45-70.
JH, SS and MMC................Read the OPs header...........Firing African rifles for no good reason............I didn't take this to mean 7X57s and the like, I took this to mean African medium and bigbores, neither of which includes the 45-70. Flame me all you like but I'm sick of hearing how the old left over blackpowder 45-70 is a big bore rifle in the grand scheme of things. It is not in the African sense of things, never has been and never will be............period. I don't make the rules but at least I'm aware of them and happy to relate them here as I understand them. Let me also add that I have shot elephant, cape buffalo, hippo, lion, crocs and much more African game............none with the 45-70. I doubt if any of my PHs would have been impressed if I showed up on an elephant or buffalo hunt with a 45-70. I suspect they likely may have refused to hunt me................Under no circumstances does it meet the threshold of an African big game cartridge......period !!!!!!!
And don't give me the sh!t about Bell and his 6.5 and 275 Rigby or the 303 Brit, yes it's all true but these still don't make the cut unless you are the tough little Scott named Bell. Grizzlies have been killed with 22LR and the like it still is not the recommended grizzly cartridge, any more than a 45-70 is a recommended African big bore cartridge for African big game.
It is time everyone on this forum got their head out of their ass and realized that the 45-70, 45-90 or even the 50-110, are not classed as African big bores for African big game animals...........period !!!!!
And don't give me the sh!t about Bell and his 6.5 and 275 Rigby or the 303 Brit, yes it's all true but these still don't make the cut unless you are the tough little Scott named Bell. Grizzlies have been killed with 22LR and the like it still is not the recommended grizzly cartridge, any more than a 45-70 is a recommended African big bore cartridge for African big game.
It is time everyone on this forum got their head out of their ass and realized that the 45-70, 45-90 or even the 50-110, are not classed as African big bores for African big game animals...........period !!!!!
I read stuff about Bell's methodology that makes me question why anyone would hold shooting elephants with a small bore as a good example. Memory is foggy but something to the effect of shooting them and letting them run off, then coming back days later to follow the smell to ivory. If true, this is unacceptable today.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Commercial ivory hunting had nothing to do with sport. The right way to hunt an elephant is to confront it head on, and make your shot from 12 yards. This isn't a game for the timid and its no the time for marginal rifles, or economy ammunition. I never considered myself terribly timid, but that all changed when we were charged by an adolescent bull elephant. Elephants are big, scary, noisy, dangerous, animals, and until you've seen one up close in the wild, you have no idea. There is nothing you can climb or hide behind that can save you, its just, you, your rifle, and him.
I'd love to hunt an elephant.
https://vimeo.com/98818700
I'd love to hunt an elephant.
https://vimeo.com/98818700
The best thing for you to do would be read his books for yourself. There has been a lot of character assassination over the years by people who didn't agree with his advocacy of small bores.
Yep Boomer that is exactly how I did it, frontal brain at about 20 mtrs, just as he tucked his trunk and flattened his ears. He left us no options with my entourage of 7 people, he wasn't running and someone or him was gonna die, PH and I decided he was the better candidate, just cause the other option meant way too much paper work...........and then there is all that running and screaming.........
Yep, my one shot hunt..........travel all the way to Botswana chase elephants around for 8 days, and some of that in reverse, then there is one loud bang and the hunt is over and I'm lighter several 10,000 dollar bills...........
Yep, my one shot hunt..........travel all the way to Botswana chase elephants around for 8 days, and some of that in reverse, then there is one loud bang and the hunt is over and I'm lighter several 10,000 dollar bills...........
There's worse things to have on a headstone than "Killed by elephant". Oddly, it still isn't popular.
The primary purpose of the big guns isn't to kill things; in the right circumstances you can kill anything with anything. The purpose is to hit them so hard they change their mind about killing you. That's why they call them stoppers, not brainers.
Oddly, it still isn't popular.The primary purpose of the big guns isn't to kill things; in the right circumstances you can kill anything with anything. The purpose is to hit them so hard they change their mind about killing you. That's why they call them stoppers, not brainers.
Wow. You just take yourself way too seriously, my friend. You're jumping to conclusions about what other people are saying and seem to be bent on establishing yourself as the final authority.
Listen very carefully:
I never said that a 45-70 can or should be classified as an African big bore rifle. If I was about to spend $20K+ on a safari with, what was it you said...an entourage of 7 people to find your animal for you, something like that...what's a couple thousand more for a genuine, fancy elephant gun that you can brag to yourself and others about?
What I said was, in my books the good old (emphasis on "old" just to make sure you understand we all know its roots) 45-70 is a big bore because it has a big bore. And it can shoot heavy bullets built for African game at decent velocities if handloaded to do so. I have loaded and fired many rounds of 500gr JSP loads with a muzzle velocity of over 2000fps in my Ruger. If that's what I had while I was living in Africa (without an entourage of people to help me find my quarry), I would have felt relatively well equipped. I wasn't hunting elephant, or buffalo or hippo, although there were certainly plenty of those in my neck of the woods. I was living there and hunting to eat. And surrounded by lions while doing so, I should add.
I think you need to get down off your high horse and stop assuming that anyone spending multiple thousands of dollars on a safari would choose a 45-70 as their rifle of choice. Really? You're kidding, right? I also think very few people would choose a single shot rifle. But some do. Some choose to use a large calibre pistol, some choose to use a crossbow to kill an elephant. Some choose to use relatively small bores. Are you OK with that?
I get it. You've paid lots of money to visit Africa and kill big animals that others have found for you. You've got lot's of money to spend on your guns and trips. That doesn't make you an expert or the final word in my opinion.
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