sooo....20mm anyone?
http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm
http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm
Firing cartridges designed for African game for no good reason.
- Thread starter rci2950
- Start date
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Wrong. It's easy to launch a 500gr Hornady JSP over 2000fps in a Ruger #1. I did it all the time. Recoil isn't pleasant in a light gun like the fallingblock, especially the 1S. But it's trivial to build loads that are very close to factory .458WM with the 45-70 if your rifle can handle the loads.
Don't believe me?
glad you put that in and it is a remind that 375 or 9.3s are medium not big bore ....
.458 Hornady 500gr over 2000fps
Over fourty caliber,
Check
over 2000 fps
Check
with a bullet of over .300 SD
Check
2000 fps is pretty fast for a 45/70, but I've seen all sorts of high velocities listed on CGN.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Something you haven't considered is the Ruger #1's 1:20 rate of twist for the .45-70. That slow rate of rotation, is what allows you to achieve the velocity you claim, but the bullet will badly precess on impact with the dense tissue of the animals we're talking about, resulting in significantly reduced penetration. Additionally, if you are shooting an elephant, solids are the correct choice of bullet, and you'll find your velocity is lower with a solid, and penetration is again compromised. Go buy a box or solids, or I could send you a few, and give em a try. If you recover some bullets, I'll bet you find the bases squashed and flattened. That's a sure sign of a bullet in precess, and a bullet that is unable to recover from an impact induced yaw doesn't penetrate as well as one that does. If your bullet penetrates 30" on a moose or a bear, its all he-haw, yipee, but if you get 30" of penetration on an elephant, when you need 4' or 5', you've got a serious problem. That's why shooting dangerous African game with a .45-70 is a stunt, a stunt that stands a better than even chance of having to be sorted out by the PH armed with a true heavy.
Edited to add . . .
Definitions change, but when the .45/70 was a military cartridge it was considered a small bore. In the days when black powder propelled
bullets, African dangerous game as shot with truly ponderous bullets weighing 2000 grs, that were driven by loads producing 200 ft lbs of recoil in 20 pound gauge rifles. The .45-70 has adapted to age of smokeless powder, but kept the slow twist rate common to it's black powder heritage, thus its intended to use low SD bullets at modest velocity, to fill a niche of killing large nondangerous game, and thin skinned dangerous game.
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There's nothing magical about the 5000 ft/lb threshold. The .404 Jeffery was always considered a classic African big bore and only generated a paltry 4000 ft/lbs. I didn't say anything about the 45-70 generating 5000 ft/lbs. What I said was it'll fire a 500gr African game bullet over 2000fps, and that is a serious amount of energy and penetration. If you guys want to play your little games about what and who gets to be in the club, that's great. But it's an imaginary game with imaginary rules.
I'll say it again: nobody is saying that the 45-70 is an "African big-bore cartridge". But what I'm saying is, your line is artificial and seems to have been drawn (at least on this forum) by people who want to maintain some sort of artificial elitism. I've read some pretty condescending, and plain dumb in my opinion, statements trying to get people who use the 45-70 to shut up when the grownups are talking about their real big-bores.
Oh, puullleeez! Can you just drop the whole condescending "stunt" thing? You sound so....British. Like I said elsewhere, if I was planning on spending an assload of money on a safari, I probably would buy a gun that cost an assload of money to go along on the trip. But that's not what this discussion is about. I get that you're trying to be derisive and all that, but it just sounds kinda....hollow. You know, sort of desperate to get the little people to be quiet. A 45-70 loaded to the max with a heavy bullet designed for the task will kill an elephant. Get over it. It may not be the best, but neither is a .458 or the .416 Rigby, a .460WBY or the .570NE for that matter when there's the .700NE. There's always something better. That's the problem with Karamojo Bell shooting elephants with a 7mm mauser. It offends everybody upstream who wants to be in the club, but doesn't want everyone else to be. And for what it's worth, those 500gr JSPs at 2030fps in my Ruger will shoot 1/2 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The bullets seem to be stabilizing just fine. Unless you're suggesting that a 14" twist somehow will help those big slugs drill into the elephant's skull. Hmmm, never thought of that.
BTW, have you seen this? You can call this a stunt as well. I call it a conscious decision to hunt a certain way.
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MajorMalcontent,
never been among elephants?
the hunting, poaching or taking ivory of Bell time and today is not the same story at all ... try to go and hunt as he was hunting in the country he was ... Liberia, congo, ivory coast. sudan, uganda. kenya etc not that much elephants left ... in many places poachers are using today 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 ammo will you go using them as they are counting for more elephants down than bell ...
i never been offended by the success of Bell nor jealous and i lived in africa where elephants roamed before poachers took their toll and their behavior changed, from placid they become unhappy campers and 7mm wont stop a charge ...
just my 2 cents.
never been among elephants?
the hunting, poaching or taking ivory of Bell time and today is not the same story at all ... try to go and hunt as he was hunting in the country he was ... Liberia, congo, ivory coast. sudan, uganda. kenya etc not that much elephants left ... in many places poachers are using today 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 ammo will you go using them as they are counting for more elephants down than bell ...
i never been offended by the success of Bell nor jealous and i lived in africa where elephants roamed before poachers took their toll and their behavior changed, from placid they become unhappy campers and 7mm wont stop a charge ...
just my 2 cents.
lol....
- Location
- Brockville
I shoot the 375 ruger. No worse than shooting a 12 gauge, just a big heavy push. Load my own 300 gr. Nosler accubond over 79 gr of h 414. Took moose at 250 yards . Sub 1 inch groups at 100yds
Saw a 120lb guy at the club a while back shooting a 338 Lapua magnum. It parts your hair 6ft behind him when he pulls the trigger. Almost like a 50BMG. No thanks. If you want bragging rights.....Found some 375 H&H cases in the last collection. Another choice...
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
So prove me wrong. Get some solids, shoot them in your .45-70, tell me you get 2000 fps, and recover the bullets to show they haven't got flattened bases. I'm not asking you to spend $100K on a 21 day safari, just a lousy $100 on a box of bullets. The bullet doesn't lie, the .45-70 either works or it doesn't, and you don't know the answer until you've seen it . . . but I do.
As for Bell, I've got his book, his knowledge of elephants was vast, and he was a talented marksman who discovered how to defeat that massive head with a small bore rifle, IIRC the .318 Westley Richards with a 250 gr solid was a favorite, not unlike a .338/06. But today there are minimum cartridge requirements in the regulations. Sport hunters are unlikely to use Bell's technique, but sport hunting and commercial hunting are not synonymous.
You do of course understand that arrows and bullets kill by very different mechanisms, the bullet crushes and displaces tissue, while the arrow cuts cleanly, so there is little friction inhibiting its penetration. Pointy sticks have been killing elephants since mastodons roamed the planet, the bullet, if its to be effective, is far more complicated, and has much greater forces working on it, so no conclusion can be drawn from a comparison.
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Yep, I'm a loser because I had a Gov't and outfitter insisted entourage of 7 people...........You know what MMC.........when you can afford to go and hunt elephants, you will see that you have no say over who accompanies you, or the size of your Gov't decreed entourage. You denigrate me because I have knowledge of the true big bores and elephant hunting..............
You know what guys, I think I have taken about all the sh!t I'm willing to take on this site while trying to help fellow shooters and hunters. Trying to guide them with cartridge and rifle selections for different hunting situations that I have experienced...............but every computer expert knows more than me and calls me down, despite my experience.................so y'all know what, I quit...........Get your advice from computer experts who have never set foot in the bush in NA and certainly not in Africa or Asia, because they know way more than I do, and will tell you so. I doubt I'll ever post on CGN again...............Y'all have a good time..............
Douglas
You know what guys, I think I have taken about all the sh!t I'm willing to take on this site while trying to help fellow shooters and hunters. Trying to guide them with cartridge and rifle selections for different hunting situations that I have experienced...............but every computer expert knows more than me and calls me down, despite my experience.................so y'all know what, I quit...........Get your advice from computer experts who have never set foot in the bush in NA and certainly not in Africa or Asia, because they know way more than I do, and will tell you so. I doubt I'll ever post on CGN again...............Y'all have a good time..............
Douglas
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