First Crack at Load Development

Doors of Perception said:
Try putting your bipod on a sand bag. I use the 50lps bags of playsand from home depot. Shooting benches and other hard surface cause bad vibrations to reflect back into your rig. This will change the resonant frequency of your rig. Load development is done to find a node or when the barrel has zero vibration at the exact moment when the bullet exits the barrel. Precision shooting should be done in the prone position with the bi pod planted in dirt or grass. For comfort, I develop loads off a bench with two sand bags - the playsand under the bipod and a mini sand bag (trouser leg partially filled with sand) under the but (then double check in the prone position). I squeeze the but bag with my left hand to put the reticle on target this eliminates a lot of user error like muscle tremors, heart beat etc. A chronograph is also useful to find the minimum spread of muzzle velocity which is useful for longer distance shots.
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Thats exactly how I made for my rear bag, I agree squeezing the sandbag with the left hand to put yourself on target really helps steady the shots. I may whip up a longer sand bag for under the bipod.

legi0n said:
I found the 75 grain Hornady Match HPBT bullet to shoot best in my trophy hunter (H322 powder).
But each rifle is different.

edit: my rifle has so much freebore I can't jam a bullet into the lands.
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I was thinking about trying the 75 grain Hornady's, a lot of what I read said it may or may not stabilize with a 1-9 twist. Might have to try it in the future.

lol that's a great avatar!
 
My axis loves 60 gr flat based bullets out to 100, will shoot 65 gr boat tail out to 200 nice. If I go any heavier the groups open up a lot. I also found Imr 4064 and Cfe223 gave me tighter groups than varget did. I'm working on load development as well and have not yet gone beyond the min loads from the hodgdon site. I shoot from bags as well. Time to hit the bench!
 
brewmech said:
My axis loves 60 gr flat based bullets out to 100, will shoot 65 gr boat tail out to 200 nice. If I go any heavier the groups open up a lot. I also found Imr 4064 and Cfe223 gave me tighter groups than varget did. I'm working on load development as well and have not yet gone beyond the min loads from the hodgdon site. I shoot from bags as well. Time to hit the bench!
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Interesting, 4064 burns faster than varget and CFE223 burns slower. CFE223 is a sphere powder isn't it? That would probably help with consistent metering. I chose 69 gr for the better BC, (less effect from wind) while still being a relatively cheap cartridge to load. You could say this is my test rig for getting into long range shooting, gaining shooting experience/technique and going through the trials and errors that come with gun maintenance, accurizing, component choices, etc.
 
Those patterns suck. Nothing I see is worthy of development.

I suggest you put a bag under the front, instead of the bipod. I take a heavy wool boot sock and fill it with white beans. It is much lighter than sand and works well.

The bullet and powder are good choices. Keep loading heavier until you see pressure.

Groups should be in the a half inch for 5 shots.

You should also try some 75 or 77 grin bullets.

Shoot all 5, and let cool between groups.

If you can shoot at 200, that would be more instructive.
 
I think I was up at 26.5gr of varget with sierra's after 2 boxes and so much different things they just would not shoot for me. Went to 68gr hornadys and shot extremely well. Think my charge was 26gr but they were loaded very long. If I remember right it was around ¾" at 200 yards.
 
Precision shooting involves a lot of things, consistency being number one. In order to be consistent, you have to eliminate variables as much as able. Shooting position, trigger pull, wind/weather (as much as possible, ie shooting in the same temps/humidity for load evaluation). Double and triple check everything.

I would do as others mentioned, bed the stock, torque the action bolts, torque the mount bolts, ring screws, everything.
Continue to shoot 5 shot groups, but measure 5 average, not 3.

What is the rate of twist in your barrel? That bullet weight may not be ideal for a slow twist 12 or 14 commonly found on the model 11's.

You had one group that looked tight together, but there were two fliers,.I wouldn't waste any time even on that load. Bed the action, re torque, and try again, report back.
 
I would bed it before wasting any more money on it. There is no way that point of impact should wander that far with slight variations in powder.
 
hometownhero said:
I think I was up at 26.5gr of varget with sierra's after 2 boxes and so much different things they just would not shoot for me. Went to 68gr hornadys and shot extremely well. Think my charge was 26gr but they were loaded very long. If I remember right it was around ¾" at 200 yards.
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Wow, was that with the axis?
 
TXS said:
Precision shooting involves a lot of things, consistency being number one. In order to be consistent, you have to eliminate variables as much as able. Shooting position, trigger pull, wind/weather (as much as possible, ie shooting in the same temps/humidity for load evaluation). Double and triple check everything.

I would do as others mentioned, bed the stock, torque the action bolts, torque the mount bolts, ring screws, everything.
Continue to shoot 5 shot groups, but measure 5 average, not 3.

What is the rate of twist in your barrel? That bullet weight may not be ideal for a slow twist 12 or 14 commonly found on the model 11's.

You had one group that looked tight together, but there were two fliers,.I wouldn't waste any time even on that load. Bed the action, re torque, and try again, report back.
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Barrel twist is 1:9, I've used a small 1/4" torque wrench to torque the action screws to ~33 inch pounds, Savage states they should be between 30-35inch pounds (ht tps://savagearms.zendesk.com/entries/23573437-What-is-the-torque-spec-for-my-action-screws-). Ring bases are torqued to 30 inch pounds and rings are torqued to 20 inch pounds (rings are Burris signature Zee rings).

A few said the bullets are wandering too far to be just a variation in powder load, but these were shot in a 'round-robin' style, i.e. 23.6gr bullet at target 1, then 23.8 gr bullet at target 2, and so on till 25.6 gr at target 11, then repeat 5 times; so I don't understand how wandering could be occurring.. I'll bed the action when I get a chance and see what improvements that makes, as well as double check the torque settings.
 
jevan23 said:
Barrel twist is 1:9, I've used a small 1/4" torque wrench to torque the action screws to ~33 inch pounds, Savage states they should be between 30-35inch pounds (ht tps://savagearms.zendesk.com/entries/23573437-What-is-the-torque-spec-for-my-action-screws-). Ring bases are torqued to 30 inch pounds and rings are torqued to 20 inch pounds (rings are Burris signature Zee rings).

A few said the bullets are wandering too far to be just a variation in powder load, but these were shot in a 'round-robin' style, i.e. 23.6gr bullet at target 1, then 23.8 gr bullet at target 2, and so on till 25.6 gr at target 11, then repeat 5 times; so I don't understand how wandering could be occurring.. I'll bed the action when I get a chance and see what improvements that makes, as well as double check the torque settings.
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Could it be just some more practice with one load is required?

I'd wait a bit before bedding the rifle and try to eliminate everything else..
 
The wandering is likely being caused by your gun needing a bedding job, the scope or your position. Where is the crosshairs of your scope relative to your point of aim after you fire your shot?
 
rl4930 said:
The wandering is likely being caused by your gun needing a bedding job, the scope or your position. Where is the crosshairs of your scope relative to your point of aim after you fire your shot?
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Hmm, no idea, never thought of checking that.. Is the idea that if your point of aim after the shot is off to the left or right you're applying an inconsistent force to the rifle while shooting?
 
That's kind of the idea. You should hook up with an experienced shooter to learn how to develop a good position. The rifle should recoil straight back. Depending on the shape of your stock it might be a little higher. If you're getting left or right, you have a bad position and/or bipod hop. If you ask around, you'll get some good advice about shooting position.
 
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rl4930 said:
That's kind of the idea. You should hook up with an experienced shooter to learn how to develop a good position. The rifle should recoil straight back. Depending on the shape of your stock it might be a little higher. If you're getting left or right, you have a bad position and/or bipod hop. If you ask around, you'll get some good advice about shooting position.
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Thanks, I don't really know any experienced shooters, a friend and I just got hooked on shooting last summer. I'll ask around the club next time I'm out
 
Consider:

For the Rifle, do the bedding and ensure no contact with the barrel. Check that all screws are tight... base screws do loosen and will drive you nuts. Make sure the scope will hold zero. Just make sure nothing is moving.

Front bag or pedestal rest or better bipod - hard surface, questionable bipod, not easy to get consistent results.

For the brass, check that a bullet will fall freely into a fired case neck. If there is any resistance, you will need to outside neck turn. confirm the case length is under max... trimming to min spec never hurts.

Ensure the scale is working properly... most scales aren't accurate enough for really precise 223 ammo.

Make sure the sizing and seating doesn't lead to runout.

Finally, consider a heavier bullet like the Hrn 75gr BTHP.

If possible, plot where each shot goes and see if there is a pattern to the dispersion. Do you get a load where several shots are close, then the shots get further apart. Suspect that the factory barrel is warping as it heats up.... this will lead to your shots stringing or dispersing but it will be repeatable so make sure things cool before shooting more.

Then it is working on your consistency and follow through so each shot breaks the same way. Head position, shoulder pressure, view through scope, breathing, trigger control.... takes time.

Good luck.

Jerry
 
What Jerry said.
If it still doesn't shoot good groups, try something to put pressure under the barrel at the front of the stock.
Right now there is a thread going on here where people are really singing the praises of the accuracy of the lower priced Marlin XL7.
When I got mine in 243 calibre a few years ago I went to the range. I got on the paper, then fired a 5 shot group at 100 yards. The barrel was too hot to touch, but it made a beautiful five shot group.
As soon as I got home I took the stock off, to see how Marlin had metal to Tupper ware stock fit. At the front of the stock is a nice saddle for the barrel to ride in. And when the screws were tightened there is a fair bit of pressure on the underside of the barrel.
Bruce
 
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jevan23 said:
Thanks for the constructive criticism. :rolleyes:
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You are welcome.

A 3 shot group is almost meaningless for load development, unless it is a series of 3 shots, in 0.5 gr increments all the way to 28 gr, to get a feel of how the rifle shoots.

A 5 shot group is not really statisticly valid, but 5 shots is the limit for many cheap factory barrels.

I had a hand in the development of the Savage 1:9 accurate rifle program and tested the first 21 prototypes.

Your rifle should be putting 5 shots into a half inch. Your "groups" are just eveidense of ammo not suitable for your rifle, or a rifle that needs to be bedded, or poor shooting technique. Most probably all three.

Get the rifle bedded. I bedded all the prototypes before testing (with the Sierra 69 and 80).

Don't shoot off that bipod. It might be ok on the grass, but not a deck.

Shoot each group in succession. Start low, and work up in 0.3 gr increments. Stop when you get pressure.

How do you clean the barrel?

If you ship me the rifle, I will bed it for you. Free.
 
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