First Crack at Load Development

[Neilm]

Jevan, If you get advice from Ganderite or H4831 you should pay attention and not brush it off. They have more experience than most people on the forum by far.Their advice was meant to help you not put you down. Bedding is the first thing you should do. If the rifle is not bedded properly torqueing the screws to a certain number of ft-lbs will not help as all you are likely doing is flexing the receiver.
By the way did the rifle shoot the same in the factory stock.

 

[cosmic]

Hmmm . .. Stock bedding is paramount if you want to achieve consistent performance out of the rifle. I'm willing to bet that the original Tupperware stock shoots as well, if not better, than the aftermarket Boyds stock.

 

[jevan23]

Consider:

For the Rifle, do the bedding and ensure no contact with the barrel. Check that all screws are tight... base screws do loosen and will drive you nuts. Make sure the scope will hold zero. Just make sure nothing is moving.

Front bag or pedestal rest or better bipod - hard surface, questionable bipod, not easy to get consistent results.

For the brass, check that a bullet will fall freely into a fired case neck. If there is any resistance, you will need to outside neck turn. confirm the case length is under max... trimming to min spec never hurts.

Ensure the scale is working properly... most scales aren't accurate enough for really precise 223 ammo.

Make sure the sizing and seating doesn't lead to runout.

Finally, consider a heavier bullet like the Hrn 75gr BTHP.

If possible, plot where each shot goes and see if there is a pattern to the dispersion. Do you get a load where several shots are close, then the shots get further apart. Suspect that the factory barrel is warping as it heats up.... this will lead to your shots stringing or dispersing but it will be repeatable so make sure things cool before shooting more.

Then it is working on your consistency and follow through so each shot breaks the same way. Head position, shoulder pressure, view through scope, breathing, trigger control.... takes time.

Good luck.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry,
I'll do the bedding possibly this weekend. When I received the stock I sanded the barrel channel wider using sandpaper wrapped around deep sockets to ensure the barrel won't touch the stock. I see a Harris bipod in my future, but that probably wont be till next spring.
I just replaced my scale last week, the electronic Hornady one that came with my reloading kit drifted continuously. I replaced it with a RCBS 5-0-5 beam and from what I can tell using the two to compare, the 5-0-5 is way better.
I'm also using lee dies, I use a universal decapping die to decap before cleaning, and only neck size after the case is clean to help keep the sizing die free of debris (not sure if this extra step helps, but cant hurt)

I'll try plotting the the shots next time I'm out at the range too,

 

[jevan23]

What Jerry said.
If it still doesn't shoot good groups, try something to put pressure under the barrel at the front of the stock.
Right now there is a thread going on here where people are really singing the praises of the accuracy of the lower priced Marlin XL7.
When I got mine in 243 calibre a few years ago I went to the range. I got on the paper, then fired a 5 shot group at 100 yards. The barrel was too hot to touch, but it made a beautiful five shot group.
As soon as I got home I took the stock off, to see how Marlin had metal to Tupper ware stock fit. At the front of the stock is a nice saddle for the barrel to ride in. And when the screws were tightened there is a fair bit of pressure on the underside of the barrel.
Bruce

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind if the bedding doesn't help the groups, Thanks

 

[jevan23]

You are welcome.

A 3 shot group is almost meaningless for load development, unless it is a series of 3 shots, in 0.5 gr increments all the way to 28 gr, to get a feel of how the rifle shoots.

A 5 shot group is not really statisticly valid, but 5 shots is the limit for many cheap factory barrels.

Yea I shot 5 shot groups because I figured it would show more for consistency than 3 shot groups (see a lot of others shooting 3 shot groups, but probably not for load development)

I had a hand in the development of the Savage 1:9 accurate rifle program and tested the first 21 prototypes.

Wow!

Your rifle should be putting 5 shots into a half inch. Your "groups" are just eveidense of ammo not suitable for your rifle, or a rifle that needs to be bedded, or poor shooting technique. Most probably all three.

Likely. I've been working on technique using a Savage Mark II FV as well, I think its helping.

Get the rifle bedded. I bedded all the prototypes before testing (with the Sierra 69 and 80).

Don't shoot off that bipod. It might be ok on the grass, but not a deck.

Shoot each group in succession. Start low, and work up in 0.3 gr increments. Stop when you get pressure.

How do you clean the barrel?

I'll play around with a bag under the bipod and just a bag at the front. For cleaning I use a boresnake and pull straight out of the barrel when it gets to the muzzle so I don't harm the crown. As far as my cleaning regiment goes, I've been following the points made in these videos on coppering and powder fouling.

ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KRUAv3Byp4&index=40&list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn
ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy1d662GVbs&list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn&index=41

If you ship me the rifle, I will bed it for you. Free.

Sincerely, I thank you for the offer, but if I don't do it myself I'll never learn.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Thanks Jerry,
I'll do the bedding possibly this weekend. When I received the stock I sanded the barrel channel wider using sandpaper wrapped around deep sockets to ensure the barrel won't touch the stock. I see a Harris bipod in my future, but that probably wont be till next spring.
I just replaced my scale last week, the electronic Hornady one that came with my reloading kit drifted continuously. I replaced it with a RCBS 5-0-5 beam and from what I can tell using the two to compare, the 5-0-5 is way better.
I'm also using lee dies, I use a universal decapping die to decap before cleaning, and only neck size after the case is clean to help keep the sizing die free of debris (not sure if this extra step helps, but cant hurt)

I'll try plotting the the shots next time I'm out at the range too,

Bedding ... critical. Most stocks are coming with very generous inletting. That allows the action to slosh around inside the stock. Cure it before any load development.

bad scales are bad for any type of precision loading. The 505 may work better... but in time, this too will not be good enough.

The Harris is better then what you are using but still not good. You will be miles a head to just rest over sand bags.... form a channel for the forend to sit in so it slides consistently in a straight line. foldy bipods are a learnt skill... not easy and definitely not how your develop a load with.

If you want a stable bipod, look to those used in FTR competition. My MPOD, Remples, and such are worlds a head for stability and will let you shoot to the limits of your barrel.

for load tuning, I would strongly advice to do the work up in 3rds groups AND cool between each 3rds step. If the 3 rds are wide, move on. If they go into 1 hole, worth retesting in larger sample size.

For factory barrels, I would rather shoot 3X3rds with cooling then 1 string of 5 to 10 rds. so many warp as they heat, you are seeing the issues with the barrel not the load.

Do check your brass. I stopped using Lapua in competition with my 223 because it can have issues. Check the clearance in the fired case. Odds are you will need to outside neck turn

The Lee collet neck die, Redding body die, and Forster seater is what I use and what I would recommend. You need to control the case sizing otherwise, you can create other harmonic issues with an overly tight to chamber case. The Lee seaters are OK but if you want more, you need to get better seater or at least check how the bullets are being currently seated.

Good luck.

Jerry

 

[jevan23]

Jevan, If you get advice from Ganderite or H4831 you should pay attention and not brush it off. They have more experience than most people on the forum by far.Their advice was meant to help you not put you down. Bedding is the first thing you should do. If the rifle is not bedded properly torqueing the screws to a certain number of ft-lbs will not help as all you are likely doing is flexing the receiver.
By the way did the rifle shoot the same in the factory stock.

No, with the factory plastic stock the 'groups' were between 1.5" and 3" with factory ammo. You could just run a $5 bill between the barrel and the tip of the stock, and just looking at it the wrong way it would touch the barrel on the left side.

 

[jevan23]

Bedding ... critical. Most stocks are coming with very generous inletting. That allows the action to slosh around inside the stock. Cure it before any load development.

bad scales are bad for any type of precision loading. The 505 may work better... but in time, this too will not be good enough.

The Harris is better then what you are using but still not good. You will be miles a head to just rest over sand bags.... form a channel for the forend to sit in so it slides consistently in a straight line. foldy bipods are a learnt skill... not easy and definitely not how your develop a load with.

If you want a stable bipod, look to those used in FTR competition. My MPOD, Remples, and such are worlds a head for stability and will let you shoot to the limits of your barrel.

for load tuning, I would strongly advice to do the work up in 3rds groups AND cool between each 3rds step. If the 3 rds are wide, move on. If they go into 1 hole, worth retesting in larger sample size.

For factory barrels, I would rather shoot 3X3rds with cooling then 1 string of 5 to 10 rds. so many warp as they heat, you are seeing the issues with the barrel not the load.

Do check your brass. I stopped using Lapua in competition with my 223 because it can have issues. Check the clearance in the fired case. Odds are you will need to outside neck turn

The Lee collet neck die, Redding body die, and Forster seater is what I use and what I would recommend. You need to control the case sizing otherwise, you can create other harmonic issues with an overly tight to chamber case. The Lee seaters are OK but if you want more, you need to get better seater or at least check how the bullets are being currently seated.

Good luck.

Jerry

Good to know some cheap sand will be better than a Harris for use at the bench! I'll check my fired cases, hopefully I don't have to outside neck turn. I read that the Lee collet neck die was one of the best which is why I went with them.
So you size the neck using the lee collet neck die, then FL size with the redding body die?

I gotta say thanks to everyone for their input, it can be tough to get good advice when your not shooting with experienced shooters.

 

[Mystic Precision]

The Redding body die only touches the shoulder and top of the case. All it does is allow you to control your headspace very precisely. The base of the case is not touched ... you want to leave this area alone.

I find the Lee collet die THE neck sizing die but you must ensure the case necks are uniform. Here outside neck turning becomes very important as will annealing. If you truly want precise ammo, outside neck turning is an important step and not hard to do with the right tools.

Check the fired neck clearance and let us know what you find

Jerry

 

[joehunt]

Out of curiosity what is a good scale Jarry

 

[jevan23]

For the brass, check that a bullet will fall freely into a fired case neck. If there is any resistance, you will need to outside neck turn. confirm the case length is under max... trimming to min spec never hurts.

Check the fired neck clearance and let us know what you find

Turns out the bullet will not fall freely into a Lapua fired case neck. I checked with a fired Winchester and Hornady case as well with the same result. O.D. of the case necks are 0.254"

 

[Mystic Precision]

Turns out the bullet will not fall freely into a Lapua fired case neck. I checked with a fired Winchester and Hornady case as well with the same result. O.D. of the case necks are 0.254"

BINGO!!!! I know the internet has a big love for Lapua brass but in EVERY rifle I have helped sort out for wonky load tuning, the first thing I ask is what type of brass. Many times it is Lapua and in every instance when using Lapua, there is a lack of neck clearance.. ie bullet will not fall freely into a fired case neck.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/223 Remington.pdf

According to SAAMI, the MAX neck diameter is 0.253". Your case is at 0.254" AND the bullet will not fall through.... you simply have no clearance to release the bullet properly. The case neck thickness is beyond SAAMI allowance. That is why you have groups showing tight central with wide flyers.

Measure the case necks with a tube micrometer and I bet they are over 12 thou... given your diameter, closer to 15 thou. This is way over thick. Now you need to compare to your chamber but given your fired case diameter, your chamber is likely around 0.255 to 256".... which is bang on SAAMI.

You will need to turn the case necks to 10 or 11 thou (which is the norm for this cal by the way).... this gives you 5 to 6 thou per side which is ideal in this type of application. Yes, bench rest rifles can run less clearance but you aren't babying your rifle like a BR shooter would so you can easily run out of clearance due to fouling.

After firing, a bullet will fall freely into this neck.

Also, with Lapua, better start thinking about annealing. The alloy is very hard and gets worst with use... now neck tension goes wonky and creates even more grief. This and lowered case volume are some of the reasons I stopped using Lapua when I competed with the 223. It simply isn't the best option.

Understand that brass flows and case neck thickness will grow with every firing... if you are going to shoot a case often, you better set up for outside neck turning and annealing if you want to keep things working at peak levels. You will also have to trim every 2 to 3 firings when running warmer loads.

THIS is the brass maintenance required for precision ammo. There is no way around it, except maybe never shooting a case more then 4 times.

Turn your necks, bedding, sand bags, and rework your loads... I bet you find you have a very good shooting rifle.

As to a good scale, the entry level is the Gempro 250. It will weigh to 0.02gr which is important for 223 loading. It will drift and is very sensitive to power supply BUT it is way less money then the scales most competition shooters use. As long as you keep an eye on your tare values and reset as needed, it will work.

I use the FX120i... alot of coin, works very well, should last alot longer (?). So why bother with scales this precise... cause a 223 will show a change in group size every 0.1gr of Varget.

My competition ammo was consistent to 0.04gr over ALL rds... that works out to error of no more then 2 kernels of Varget. You may not need nor care to be this anal but you will see the results on target especially if shooting at LR.

Jerry

 

[Ganderite]

The chamber is SAAMI minimum (or at least it was when I was involved.) So fat neck cases could be a disaster.

The throat is (was) the NATO throat.

 

[jevan23]

The chamber is SAAMI minimum (or at least it was when I was involved.) So fat neck cases could be a disaster.

The throat is (was) the NATO throat.

lol great, so my rifle chamber is manufactured to SAAMI min specs and I bought brass which happens to be manufactured beyond SAMMI specs for neck thickness?

So if I invest in a bench mounted case trimmer (currently I'm using a lee hand trimmer with drill attachment) and an outside neck turner attachment, would that be all that's required to increase clearance for the bullet to leave the case properly(i.e. no neck wall thickness gauge or anything like that)?

 

[jevan23]

Well I took the time this weekend to glass bed the rifle stock, I used Miles Gilbert Bedrock Glass Bedding kit (picked up at my local Cabelas). There wasn't much space in the stock to apply bedding compound, so I've got lots left over for future use. I've seen some different looking bedding jobs on the net, but for this one I just followed the Instructions that came with the kit.



Here's the area by the recoil lug, I used a marker to show where I wasn't going to remove stock for the bedding compound:


I removed some stock around the action screw area and some stock from where the recoil lug rests against the stock (came across a metal pin in the stock??)


Here I marked out at the back receiver screw where the stock material is going to be removed:


Heres the bedding compound applied to the stock (i used 1:1:1 hardener, resin and micro-balloons):



I then set the rifle into the stock (with release agent) and installed the action screws to align the rifle in the stock and wrapped the action to the stock with surgical tubing from the kit:


After the compound dried I popped the action out of the stock:


There's a bit of a dent in the top right part of the bedding in the pic below due to some clay filler that was protruding out of a crevice in the rifle. Not sure if this is ok the way it is or if I should touch it up with a bit more bedding compound and repeat the procedure..

 

[Mystic Precision]

Nice start but you might want to consider a redo and adding more material. The point of bedding is to ensure support for the entire action within the stock. You have contact points but the sides and most of the lug is unsupported.

The barrel in this project was heavy so I extended the bedding going forward. I would support around the barrel nut regardless.

Outside neck turning will allow the proper clearance you need for proper bullet release.

Jerry

 

[titch--]

Since your in there. Ive read that Savages like their tangs to float aswell

 

[rl4930]

Yes, don't bed the tang.

 

[jevan23]

Since your in there. Ive read that Savages like their tangs to float aswell

Yes, don't bed the tang.

Yes I read the same thing, I placed some tape under the tang to keep it floating

 

[Mystic Precision]

Makes no difference.... all my competition rifles using Savage receivers are fully bedded.

Work just fine.

Jerry