First Rifle Question
- Thread starter CompBoy
- Start date
I don't see how a 300 wm is a good choice for a new hunter, its loud, heavy recoil and expensive to shoot. Something like a 308 or perhaps a 6.5x55 would be much more practical.
- Location
- Yellowknife, NWT
The .308 is a great choice; 7mm-08 as well. The recoil from a .30-06 isn't that bad. I'm a bit of a wuss in the recoil department, but I don't find the recoil too bad with 150 grain loads, which are lots for deer. The 180 grainers commonly used for moose start to get a bit stiff.
The .223 is legal in Ontario for deer, but I wouldn't use one. Don't worry too very much about ammo prices; the amount of practice required to stay competent at shooting isn't that huge, particularly if you're going to stay with one rifle only. Of the two cartridges you listed, I'd recommend the .30-06, and if asked for an opinion, I'd recommend the 7mm-08 or .308, both of which are great cartridges for deer, bear, and moose. For moose, the 7mm-08 is maybe a wee bit limited in range, but is an easy cartridge to shoot well, partly because of its low recoil factor. I personally use a .280 for nearly everything, but if I were replacing it for some reason, I'd probably go with a 7mm-08. I've never yet actually needed the full power that the .280 offers, and it is only a couple hundred fps faster than the 7mm-08, at most.
The .223 is legal in Ontario for deer, but I wouldn't use one. Don't worry too very much about ammo prices; the amount of practice required to stay competent at shooting isn't that huge, particularly if you're going to stay with one rifle only. Of the two cartridges you listed, I'd recommend the .30-06, and if asked for an opinion, I'd recommend the 7mm-08 or .308, both of which are great cartridges for deer, bear, and moose. For moose, the 7mm-08 is maybe a wee bit limited in range, but is an easy cartridge to shoot well, partly because of its low recoil factor. I personally use a .280 for nearly everything, but if I were replacing it for some reason, I'd probably go with a 7mm-08. I've never yet actually needed the full power that the .280 offers, and it is only a couple hundred fps faster than the 7mm-08, at most.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
First, let's get the rifle chambering out of the way. There is no centerfire cartridge that is as versatile as the .30/06. It is such an obvious choice for the one rifle shooter/hunter that nothing else need be considered. Your second rifle should be a .375 or a .22-250 depending on your needs.
No factory centerfire ammo is cheap if you intend to shoot enough to become competent with it, and the .30/06 is no exception. This means that at the same time as you get your rifle you should consider handloading. Handloading can be as simple or as complex as you choose to make it. Fifty new cartridge casings will last indefinitely when loaded with cast bullets, a pound of Unique will last about 465 rounds, 100 primers costs about the same as a box of plain Jane .22 rimfire, and cast bullets with gas checks will run you about 10 cents each. That's pretty cheap shooting. You need a good loading manual, the Lyman lists both jacketed and cast bullet loads, or for now you could just get the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. Lee makes a nice little C press for about $40.00, and the mild loads mean you can get away with neck sizing. For cast bullet loads the powder dippers at about $10 will work fine. When you want to shoot jacketed you'll need a scale and a set of full length sizing dies, so if you just intend to shoot a box or two in a year you are better for now to buy factory.
Lets talk about your rifle. You sound like you have your heart set on the Savage/Stevens rifles, and there is nothing wrong with that, except that if you are looking solely at price you have limited yourself unnecessarily. Tradex has many good quality used rifles available, mostly Husqvarna, at a reasonable price. There are also good deals to be had from time to time in the EE. You haven't said what you intend to use for sights, and if you intend to scope the rifle this is not the place to go cheap. The scope /rifle combinations sold at low prices should be avoided. If you can't afford a new scope buy a good used scvope, and consider that a fixed 4X or 6X is cheaper and more rugged that most variable power scopes regardless of make. Mounts are another place where it doesn't pay to go cheap, but I was quite happy for many years with a Weaver base and Weaver rings. If the scope is too much for you right now buy a rifle that has iron sights, and again try to get the best you can find or have after market sights installed by a competent gunsmith.
The last considerations are a cleaning kit, a sling and a gun case. Just remember you get what you pay for. A quality leather sling will run about $75, one piece cleaning rods run $45, bore brush $3, jags $6, and you should use cotton patches. If you are shooting cast bullets JB Bore cleaner and Hoppes is fine, but if you shoot jacketed a foaming bore cleaner like WipeOut is very good, as is the strong ammonia based solvents like Sweets 7.62.
Don't let this stuff overwhelm you. Buy what you can as you can afford it. Take the opportunity to shoot when you can. Much can be learned about trigger control and position shooting from dry firing at home. Hope this helps.
No factory centerfire ammo is cheap if you intend to shoot enough to become competent with it, and the .30/06 is no exception. This means that at the same time as you get your rifle you should consider handloading. Handloading can be as simple or as complex as you choose to make it. Fifty new cartridge casings will last indefinitely when loaded with cast bullets, a pound of Unique will last about 465 rounds, 100 primers costs about the same as a box of plain Jane .22 rimfire, and cast bullets with gas checks will run you about 10 cents each. That's pretty cheap shooting. You need a good loading manual, the Lyman lists both jacketed and cast bullet loads, or for now you could just get the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. Lee makes a nice little C press for about $40.00, and the mild loads mean you can get away with neck sizing. For cast bullet loads the powder dippers at about $10 will work fine. When you want to shoot jacketed you'll need a scale and a set of full length sizing dies, so if you just intend to shoot a box or two in a year you are better for now to buy factory.
Lets talk about your rifle. You sound like you have your heart set on the Savage/Stevens rifles, and there is nothing wrong with that, except that if you are looking solely at price you have limited yourself unnecessarily. Tradex has many good quality used rifles available, mostly Husqvarna, at a reasonable price. There are also good deals to be had from time to time in the EE. You haven't said what you intend to use for sights, and if you intend to scope the rifle this is not the place to go cheap. The scope /rifle combinations sold at low prices should be avoided. If you can't afford a new scope buy a good used scvope, and consider that a fixed 4X or 6X is cheaper and more rugged that most variable power scopes regardless of make. Mounts are another place where it doesn't pay to go cheap, but I was quite happy for many years with a Weaver base and Weaver rings. If the scope is too much for you right now buy a rifle that has iron sights, and again try to get the best you can find or have after market sights installed by a competent gunsmith.
The last considerations are a cleaning kit, a sling and a gun case. Just remember you get what you pay for. A quality leather sling will run about $75, one piece cleaning rods run $45, bore brush $3, jags $6, and you should use cotton patches. If you are shooting cast bullets JB Bore cleaner and Hoppes is fine, but if you shoot jacketed a foaming bore cleaner like WipeOut is very good, as is the strong ammonia based solvents like Sweets 7.62.
Don't let this stuff overwhelm you. Buy what you can as you can afford it. Take the opportunity to shoot when you can. Much can be learned about trigger control and position shooting from dry firing at home. Hope this helps.
.22 LR for shooting, the practice is essential.
For hunting, .308 is practical, almost any 30 cal. is OK, and if you can do handloading lots of people have owned and used several calibres and ended up with the best: 7x57.
30-06 is an inflated copy of the 7x57.
For hunting, .308 is practical, almost any 30 cal. is OK, and if you can do handloading lots of people have owned and used several calibres and ended up with the best: 7x57.
30-06 is an inflated copy of the 7x57.
That I am definatly noticing the amount I am looking at shooting is about a box a week depending on if I can get to the range on rifle night for the next year at least that's the biggest issue works out to $960 for the year which I guess isn't that bad. I spend more then that on books for University then that by a LONG shot. However for now the firearms may not serve any useful purpose.
I got some of what you said, I know it's cheaper. The two manuals you mentioned are they able to lead you from knowing nothing at all to at least not blowing yourself up or is there another manual for that.
I have some concerns about the Tradex stuff just because I am uncertain about purchasing a firearm at this point when it says things like crack, chip or safety is not working. The EE sounds good it's the sending the money first and waiting for the firearm to arrive. For a new to the board guy it's a little nerve wracking. Particularly because I don't have the money to waste and get nothing for it.
What I wish I could find is a new inexpensive rifle with Iron sights. I know the norm for most is the scope and I am willing to buy the scope package mainly because it has the thing installed and bore sited already. The lack of information about scopes and mounting is amazing it's like there a conspiracy or something to ensure know one really knows how to mount the buggers must be all the gunsmith in cahoots
I'm not to worried about the cost of the misc. stuff the reality is I probaly have enough of a budget to purchase a Reminton model 700 SPS I can go to about $500 to 600 I just break out in hives if I spend more then a couple hundred bucks at a time trust me the wife HATES going shopping with me for anything. If I go over the budget I can always work a few more shifts at the temp agency and pay for it.
It does, still confused as hell I'm slowly getting better with it. This board is a real help though.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Buying a used rifle can certainly be intimidating. I like Tradex's descriptions because they give an honest appraisal of the rifle you are looking at. They will email better pics of a specific rifle on request. Generally speaking, the better a rifle's condition on the outside, the better it will be on the inside. A rusty beat up rifle is unlikely to of been cared for, but honest dings and scratches can belong to rifle that was used and loved. A cracked stock at the tang has little to do with how a rifle was cared for, often the bedding did not leave enough relief in that area as the buying public do not like unsightly gaps between the metal and the wood. Small cracks can usually be repaired without difficulty or great expense by a competent gunsmith. If the stock needs to be bedded or adjusted to fit you properly, this could be addressed at the same time.
One advantage of buying a rifle of 1950's vintage is that they come with factory irons. These days it seems to be easier to get a new shotgun with good irons than it is a new rifle. A new Savage or Remington leaves you with a sight problem to resolve, but this is not insurmountable, if you go to Brownells web site or get their catalog you can find a large selection of irons for modern rifles.
A sporting rifle is often a better bet than a surplus military rifle. With a sporter you seldom have to worry about the the bolt handle clearing a scope bell, over sized or unusual bore diameter, or headspace issues as has been a problem with some military rifles. Military rifles tend to be heavier than their sporting counterparts. On a tight budget though, military rifles can have advantages. Most have pretty good iron sights and most feed well. I've owned several Lee Enfields, various Swedish, German, and Spanish Mausers, and a Mosin Nagant that all shot quite well with the factory sights.
I recall fondly a sporterized Century Arms 1917 Enfield that shot like a house on fire, and I consider it my best ever .30/06 despite the fact that it came sans sights, was heavy and clunky, too long, and the B&C stock left much to be desired. The receiver was machined down to accept a scope rail, but the screw holes were not in line with the barrel, so I slotted an aluminum Weaver base so that I could center the scope with a bore sighter, then epoxied it in place. The control round feed was flawless, the magazine cavernous, and the two stage trigger broke cleanly without need for adjustment. The first group out of that rifle was 3/4" at 100 yards. That rifle saw thousands of rounds, and if I did my part it never let me down in the field or at the range. The point is that there are good surplus rifles.
When it comes to firearms, you generally get what you pay for. The gun trade is highly competitive, so it is unlikely that two rifles of similar material and quality will be priced far apart. Still, one hears good things from those who have bought Savage/Stevens products. The Remington 710/770 you will never hear anything good about.
Amen to that, they are the worst POS out there IMHO
30-06, 308. Can't go wrong with either. I agree that you should have a good .22 for training as well. Plus they are just good plain fun.
I like the .223 but it's more of a varmint/target cartridge. Get one of those as your third rifle.
In terms of brand, Brno if you can find one and the Weatherby Vanguard offers good value. I'd certainly start with a good used low mileage one.
JMO
I like the .223 but it's more of a varmint/target cartridge. Get one of those as your third rifle.
In terms of brand, Brno if you can find one and the Weatherby Vanguard offers good value. I'd certainly start with a good used low mileage one.
JMO
Here's my 2c.
For caliber I'd stick with a .308, ammo is easily sourced and you can find surplus for a decent price. It doesn't give up anything to the 30-06 and allows you the versatility to use it as a hunting gun and as a precision rig without as much recoil.
The Savage Scount has always appealed to me as a hunting/general purpose gun.
http://www.savagearms.com/10fcmscout.htm
http://www.steyrscout.org/savscout.htm
With optics the whole package (rifle, scope, rings, sling, bipod) should come in around $1100
The other option, and maybe a little more versatile for your needs is the Remington SPS Tactical
http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm
With optics (Bushnell 10x40 Mildot) the whole lot (rifle, scope, rings, sling, bipod) should come in around $1250
If it were me the SPS would get the nod. You'd end up with a very capable traget/precision rifle and for hunting once a year a more than capable game getter. In the end most of your time will be at the range so go for something that'll work there best. For hunting a couple of times a year it's not such a drag to carry around a heavy barrel, plus you can always use it for the odd varmint/coyote if need be.
For caliber I'd stick with a .308, ammo is easily sourced and you can find surplus for a decent price. It doesn't give up anything to the 30-06 and allows you the versatility to use it as a hunting gun and as a precision rig without as much recoil.
The Savage Scount has always appealed to me as a hunting/general purpose gun.
http://www.savagearms.com/10fcmscout.htm
http://www.steyrscout.org/savscout.htm
With optics the whole package (rifle, scope, rings, sling, bipod) should come in around $1100
The other option, and maybe a little more versatile for your needs is the Remington SPS Tactical
http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm
With optics (Bushnell 10x40 Mildot) the whole lot (rifle, scope, rings, sling, bipod) should come in around $1250
If it were me the SPS would get the nod. You'd end up with a very capable traget/precision rifle and for hunting once a year a more than capable game getter. In the end most of your time will be at the range so go for something that'll work there best. For hunting a couple of times a year it's not such a drag to carry around a heavy barrel, plus you can always use it for the odd varmint/coyote if need be.
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Well, this is good information that was my concern I don't care about how it looks as long as the rifle shoots good and feeds properly my concern is in the rifles use not how it looks I'm just starting to shoot give me a several years of shooting then I may care about how it looks but I doubt it
. Thanks for the site. I just can't understand whats wrong with these company's and including Iron sights what if your scope breaks in the field?
That is good to know. So for the surplus mil it's questionable as to how well the rifle will work. That is again another problem the last thing I need is a rifle that needs a lot of trips to the gun smith. The wife while supportive of shooting would become less so if there is a great deal of money to be spent on fixing a rifle routinely.
Both of those are well outside my price range I could buy em but the I would have no money for Ammo and the gun would just sit in my closet. They are something to look at after I have been shooting for a while.
Good point about the .308 everyone seem to go to the round when balancing the needs of the range and the needs of the hunter. Now if I can find a cheap supply of Ammo I see plenty of cheap ammo in the States for it but the supply in Canada seems questionable. I can stretch the budget a little to purchase but $1100 is way to much. I know it isn't that much when looked over the years of service but, ouch!
Get the 30-06 because it is a capable gun. Then skip reloading and buy yourself a nice rimfire. .22 LR, .22 Mag or .17 HMR are all good choices. (I go the .22 and .17 myself. Love them both. They will let you shoot a lot without breaking the bank. You cannot have one gun to do it all. (Shotgun maybe?) but these two will take care of everything.
If there's one thing I've learned about guns (and life in general) is that usually penny wise is pound foolish in the end. I don't make enough money to buy cheap guns, and everytime I've broken that rule I've ended up spending more in the end. Your milage may vary, but I suggest you save a few more pennies and buy something that will serve you well years down the road rather than something that'll go bang.
Note that the prices I gave were for everything you'd need, the gun itself is only $370 more than the Stevens 200 but it comes with a better stock and heavy barrel so it's not really much more considering what you get.
Note that the prices I gave were for everything you'd need, the gun itself is only $370 more than the Stevens 200 but it comes with a better stock and heavy barrel so it's not really much more considering what you get.
wabageesik
New member
William's Arms in Port Perry is still selling some Weatherby Vanguards with a mounted 3-9x40 Bushnell 3200 scope for $675.
There's a .270 win left that would fit your needs very well.
I bought one for my wife, in .243 win, some months back and she's very happy with it.
I've had a great deal of luck with the cheaper Federal ammo in both calibers.
$15.00 or so a box at Wal-Mart or the TSC.So shooting doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive.
There's a .270 win left that would fit your needs very well.
I bought one for my wife, in .243 win, some months back and she's very happy with it.
I've had a great deal of luck with the cheaper Federal ammo in both calibers.
$15.00 or so a box at Wal-Mart or the TSC.So shooting doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive.
Oddly enough the wife said the same thing. I was blown away by that one but she did the "buy something you could pass to the grand kids not something that'll break in a years time." God do I love that woman.
Course she wants to move to Sudbury or North Bay in a few years. So I can see the point at that point the gun would change from a fancy toy to food getter BTW thanks for the site unless Weatherby Vangaurds are crap which I don't thnk they are Weatherby has a pretty good rep course so does Remington and the 710 770 from all the reports SUCKS the big one. I'll have to check with the Walmarts around me I don't know if they stock anything but .22 cal ammo. I live in the GTA so it is possible.
I think a .270 is a great cartridge for a new hunter. Recoil is milder than a .30-06, ammo is just as cheap. It shoots very flat, which helps if you misjudge the distance to an animal.
Remember not to go cheap on the scope. You won't be shooting anything if you can't see through the scope! In my opinion the best low priced scope out there is a Weaver K4 - which is a fixed 4x scope. It is light and can be had for under $200 (new).
Remember not to go cheap on the scope. You won't be shooting anything if you can't see through the scope! In my opinion the best low priced scope out there is a Weaver K4 - which is a fixed 4x scope. It is light and can be had for under $200 (new).
She's a keeper! For now though stick with something basic that you can shoot the snot out of and enjoy. When the bug bites, and it will, there's a plethora of choices. If you want a heirloom gun you can pass on, something like a CZ550 full stock has always been my favorite. You could even go that route now with the CZ452 full stock in .22LR or .22mag. for your rimfire. There's just so many options, but at least you have the wife one all squared away!
