First time at range with my m14
- Thread starter d1ce
- Start date
- Location
- Toronto, ON
Thanks for this update - I don't reload but I'm very interested to know how it works out... That winchester stuff sure is snappy but also expensive...
mcpherson284
Regular
- Location
- Vancouver Island
There are 3 categories, undersized, over sized and fire formed. Yes, if you shut of the gas valve on an M14 it will give you the most accurate fire formed case. The problem lays in that if you have any hang up what so ever, a particle of dirt, sand, or even as simple of your thumb resting against the op-rod, any number of things, then you risk not having the bolt home in to battery properly. Another reason to Full length resize is because the Chinese M14/M305's are Chrome lined barrels and that means it is possible to have a chamber that isn't concentric. That means your brass can come out being oval because the chrome is a plating and isn't perfect. The gun was designed to be fired with factory sized casings, even Federal Gold Medal Match, or any of the other Factory Match ammo is sized to full length sizing and they still preform amazing with what you are calling "Under sized" casings. Your so called over sized chamber should be checked with a Nato 1.640 No Go gauge. if the bolt closes on the No Go gauge, you should take it back otherwise you will be having some serious issues. Otherwise, stick to GI Military ball because that is what the gun is designed for.
As for your comment about what is more dangerous, let me educate you about the 1964 US National Match as this happened to be a very interesting year for the National Match. It was the first year that the M-1 Garand and M-14 shot side by side on the firing line, thus, it was the first time that warnings were passed out about watching what ammo went into the Garands. Funny thing is, the 7.62x51 (308) actually can be shot out of a 30-06, it is just not recommended. The result of doing this, you produce what looks like a rimless 45-70. Well, believe it or not, in 1964, a number of competitors accidentally fed 308 into a 30-06 chamber.
The casing in made of a soft malleable material because it stretches easily. If you honestly believe this is such an issues... then why is it that the H&K PSG-1 is capable of such formidable accuracy? After all, the PSG-1 has a fluted chamber. Or there is also a 1903 Springfield, its chamber is a lot bigger than a Winchester Model 70's chamber, and an M-1 Garands chamber is almost worse than a 1903 Springfield because the brass is still expanding as the bolt starts its travel to the rear... and yet putting Federal Gold Medal Match (Or M-72 match ammo) through a Garand or Springfield, amazing things happen there is a good barrel on them.
As for your comment about what is more dangerous, let me educate you about the 1964 US National Match as this happened to be a very interesting year for the National Match. It was the first year that the M-1 Garand and M-14 shot side by side on the firing line, thus, it was the first time that warnings were passed out about watching what ammo went into the Garands. Funny thing is, the 7.62x51 (308) actually can be shot out of a 30-06, it is just not recommended. The result of doing this, you produce what looks like a rimless 45-70. Well, believe it or not, in 1964, a number of competitors accidentally fed 308 into a 30-06 chamber.
The casing in made of a soft malleable material because it stretches easily. If you honestly believe this is such an issues... then why is it that the H&K PSG-1 is capable of such formidable accuracy? After all, the PSG-1 has a fluted chamber. Or there is also a 1903 Springfield, its chamber is a lot bigger than a Winchester Model 70's chamber, and an M-1 Garands chamber is almost worse than a 1903 Springfield because the brass is still expanding as the bolt starts its travel to the rear... and yet putting Federal Gold Medal Match (Or M-72 match ammo) through a Garand or Springfield, amazing things happen there is a good barrel on them.
This one reads like a bad case of A.D.D.
I just couldn’t resist a response.
B – Good luck with the refund. Let me know how you make out with that.
I would not recommend that anyone take mcpherson284’s advise and try firing a 308 from an 06. That sounds like a nice way to lose a hand.
I’m really not sure where you are going with this.
Uh… Again… is there a point being made here? These are all military rifles which by default have sloppy chambers. You didn’t think they only did this on M14s did ya.
As for the Garand yanking the brass out early…. Well the gas system was not refined very well in those days… so again… I’m not sure if you are making a point here. It was improved upon for the M14.
I just couldn’t resist a response.
This has already been beaten to death above so I won’t bother to respond.
Correct… The gun was originally designed to fire factory casings. Unfortunately these guns are clearly not being manufactured to the original design specifications. If they were, this thread would not exist.
Nobody is claiming the new brass is undersize to saami spec. They are undersize by comparison to the slop fit oversize chambers that Norks are famous for. It’s a relative term.
A – Yes they are over size, the point is not in dispute.
B – Good luck with the refund. Let me know how you make out with that.
Well again, I agree… YOU CAN! Not me. YOU CAN jump off a bridge. That don’t mean I’m gonna join ya, just because YOU CAN.
I would not recommend that anyone take mcpherson284’s advise and try firing a 308 from an 06. That sounds like a nice way to lose a hand.
I’m really not sure where you are going with this.
Well let’s just apply a little deductive reasoning to this one. The Germans are a pretty smart bunch. They set out to build a really accurate military semi auto. Well because it’s military it would need a sloppy chamber to accommodate dirt and sand and such. BUT that would defeat the accuracy requirement wouldn’t it. So these clever Germans find a compromise… They cut a sammi spec chamber so the brass fits tight and then flute the chamber so the brass can stretch out – instead of cutting the chamber oversize. This way they get the chamber slop needed for safety and a good fit for the brass so it’s accurate.
Uh… Again… is there a point being made here? These are all military rifles which by default have sloppy chambers. You didn’t think they only did this on M14s did ya.
As for the Garand yanking the brass out early…. Well the gas system was not refined very well in those days… so again… I’m not sure if you are making a point here. It was improved upon for the M14.
If your primers are protruding, even a little, this is a sure sign of excessive headspace (the cartridge basically has too much room to 'hang out' in the chamber).
Inspect your spent casings. If there's a bright shiny yellowish coloured ring just after the case head then this means your casings are stretching dangerously thin (also caused by excessive headspace). If you reload your brass DO NOT reuse these cases.
Cratering of the primer and black carbon around the case head (around the primer where the head stamp would be) are also signs.
If you have any or all of these symptoms then I wouldn't ignore them. Unfortunately there's no cheap fix...but you can buy another rifle-you only get one face though. Don't blow it off.
shooterman
CGN Regular
- Location
- S. Ontario
x 2 !!!!
yup definitely that. Ill stir it some.
I havent heard anyone that seems to know what theyre talking about speak out against full length resizing the brass to fit the chamber. You take your full length resizing die, adjust it to give you .002 smaller headspace than what you measured your headspace as being, and result in not overly working brass/creating a cartridge that is not going to have to expand .050 to fit the chamber. This is different from neck sizing, right, as in the rest of the brass is getting sized as well and is assured to fit the chamber, right?
Im a gunnewb do I not get it or do certain other people not get it?
mcpherson284
Regular
- Location
- Vancouver Island
What part of "Funny thing is, the 7.62x51 (308) actually can be shot out of a 30-06, it is just not recommended. " did you not understand?
Let me spell it out for you, despite what you think you know about increasing Accuracy and Capability of the gun, you are not seeing the facts.
1. Neck sizing is primarily to prolong case life and while it MAY help with accuracy, the barrels on these Chinese copies are not capable of the accuracy you are trying to get.
2. These Chinese M-14's are rack grade or less, IE, 2 -2.5 Minute of angle guns. While some might do better than that, you are still trying to make a Silk Hand bag out of a Pigs Ear.
3. Why is it that all the major competition shooters Full length resize their brass for Garand/M-14 and always tell others to do the same thing for SAFETY reasons and yet you are telling everyone not to and to instead use fire formed casings? Read the book on loading for Garands and M-14s, the Americans beat the reloading of these two to death and then some. And we are talking from 1936 (the year the M-1 was adopted) to 2013. That is how many years of playing with this? That's 77 years, How long have you been playing with this again? And you still know better?
4. Telling people to use fire formed cases in Garands, M14s, or even the Chinese M14s is irresponsible and out right dangerous. The responsibility falls to each person to realize that this is a Chinese copy, and on the M-14/M-305 their quality is below what it should be. First thing that should be done before cleaning grease of and shooting it is to get the gun inspected by a gunsmith, Yes, Pay the man his $20, $60, what ever. Check the Chamber with a Go/No Go gauge. If the No Go homes in, you have to choices, shoot it as is with Military ball, or turn around and take it back. YES They will take it back, as the gun is unfired and still in the packing grease. But, if there are worries, check before you buy and see if they will take it back. if they won't don't buy from them, or get a set of Go/No go Gauges.
5. if you insist on trying to make the Chinese gun more accurate that it is, go to a gunsmith, get him to pull the barrel, trim one rotation of threads off the back of the barrel, run a 308 chamber reamer into it, and put the barrel back or. Or get a new barrel instead.
Have you ever seen what happens with someone using fire formed cases in a Chinese M14? I have, the guy walked away intact, no marks either. He did EXACTLY what you keep rambling on about, blew his M14 up and has a Daffy Duck wall hanger to show for it! But he was man enough to admit what he did, and admit he was wrong and that he should have listened to what he was being told. DON'T USE FIRE FORMED CASES in Garands or M14s. DON'T Tell people it is ok to do when EVERY reloading manual on the subject dealing with M1 Garands and M14s say "FULL LENGTH RESIZE ONLY"
You want to put words in my mouth and try and tell everyone I said "it is ok to" when I said, "Funny thing is, the 7.62x51 (308) actually can be shot out of a 30-06, it is just not recommended.", go for it. It is in writing on the wall what I have said.
- Location
- Northern Ontario
Lol no one here is saying to use neck sise die's ^ what has been said is to fire form your brass in the chamber then set your FL die to set the shoulder back 5 thou for adequate tolerances aka making a round with proper fit to chamber ... Yes Americans know how to make ammo for ther AMERICAN rifles with properly cut cambers ,us Canadians know how to make dangerous Chinese rifles function properly and safely also dam near as accurate this was probably a waste of breath if you didn't get it buy now
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I give up. I'm tapping out.
They drag you down to their level and then beat you up with experience.
head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>
head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>head>wall>
I give up. I'm tapping out.
They drag you down to their level and then beat you up with experience.
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uh...whats with his 5th point? Who would "insist" on making a gun more accurate than it is? thats just crazy talk now isnt it 
maybe someone did mention neck sizing- that person is wrong you're right. But why not fire form the case, then run it through a full length sizing die but set the shoulder back .005 from the chamber. Is this not full length sizing?
edit- just read the above threads. hahah I get it this guy is just $%^$#$ perhaps
maybe someone did mention neck sizing- that person is wrong you're right. But why not fire form the case, then run it through a full length sizing die but set the shoulder back .005 from the chamber. Is this not full length sizing?
edit- just read the above threads. hahah I get it this guy is just $%^$#$ perhaps
