First Time Reloading - First Time Grouping - First Time Everything

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DougPeach

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Okay guys, I need all kinds of help here. I have never been taught any of this stuff and don't really have a resource to draw on.

I bought a .243 with a 1:10 barrel twist.
The rifle is a Zastava M70. It is gorgeous and in like new condition. I placed a bipod on the front sling swivel mount and plan to upgrade the scope I currently have on it as it is not a great scope.

I bought a Lee Single stage press,
My goal was to get to a cartridge that is as accurate as possible and capable of taking deer in Ontario.

I have about 125x 100gr Hornady Interlock BTSP bullets and I have about 1lb of IMR 4831 and 1/2lb of IMR 3031.

I am definitely willing to buy a different powder and a different bullet after what I have experienced but my questions are;
Should I scrap these entirely? Is it the twist/bullet combo? Is it the Powders?

I shot 4x 4 Round groups @75yds with 33.6gr of IMR 3031 pushing a 100gr Hornady Interlock BTSP my best grouping was 1.66" and my average was 2.5"

I shot 4x 4 round groups @75yds with 43gr of IMR 4831 pushing a 100gr Hornady Interlock BTSP my best grouping was 2.07" and my average was 2.2"

This is junk isn't it? I was shooting from prone with a bipod.

I wasn't really letting the barrel cool, it was at most 10 seconds between shots.



*When I bought the bullets I noticed they were in stock and thought, "Hmm 100gr should kill a deer better because it is around the top weight" turns out I was wrong, and the 85-95gr should also work right?

*When I bought the powder I noticed it was a listed load from Sierra for their 100gr BTSP rounds

*Both these loads should be pushing 2900fps at the muzzle according to load tables

I need any tips, any resources, and any recommendations you guys can give because I am sure that this can be improved
 
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Could be a number of reasons.
Gun itself maybe seating depth,etc.
Try loading 3 rds groups at different powder wieghts.
 
buy a box of good commercial ammo to compare to. let someone else shoot the rifle. eliminate the simple things first, before you get into the weeds.
 
I was having a similar issue with my Browning 7mm rem.
Then I started messing around with COL.
I was using book recommended COAL and was 60 + thous off the lands.
I loaded them 20 thous off the lands and the group went from 2+ MOA to sub MOA.

Also those Hornady SP are garbage.

Nosler Ballistic tips or Berger are a way better choice, in my opinion.
 
45C said:
I was having a similar issue with my Browning 7mm rem.
Then I started messing around with COL.
I was using book recommended COAL and was 60 + thous off the lands.
I loaded them 20 thous off the lands and the group went from 2+ MOA to sub MOA.

Also those Hornady SP are garbage.

Nosler Ballistic tips or Berger are a way better choice, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Ok, Funny you should say that. I was just looking at how to check bullet seating depth for your rifle and it is something I will be doing tonight once the kids are asleep.

I should have been suspicious of the Hornadys..they were the only ones in 100gr in stock.
 
The very first thing I would do is find out if the problem is with the Rifle, the Shooter or both.

On the Range on a solid Table use Sandbags under the front of the Stock and also support with Sandbags the Stock under the Shoulder. Make sure you have your Ear protection on to
avoid flinching.

Shoot at 100 Meters 5 shot Groups with 2 min. cooling between each shot.

If you done all that satisfactorily and cant get your 5 Shot Group under 1.5" start looking at Barrel Free floating or not, Bullet (weight them individually) Bullet seating dept. Most likely it will not be the Powder unless you are way off between loads. If you have access to a Chronograph use it, results may lead you to success !

Cheers



It helps if there is nobody else around distracting you.
 
Brassman66 said:
The very first thing I would do is find out if the problem is with the Rifle, the Shooter or both.

On the Range on a solid Table use Sandbags under the front of the Stock and also support with Sandbags the Stock under the Shoulder. Make sure you have your Ear protection on to
avoid flinching.

Shoot at 100 Meters 5 shot Groups with 2 min. cooling between each shot.

If you done all that satisfactorily and cant get your 5 Shot Group under 1.5" start looking at Barrel Free floating or not, Bullet (weight them individually) Bullet seating dept. Most likely it will not be the Powder unless you are way off between loads. If you have access to a Chronograph use it, results may lead you to success !

Cheers



It helps if there is nobody else around distracting you.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice, looks like I'm gunna have to go by myself to shoot next time.

Why would people say you cant expect accuracy out of "powder x" or "powder y" performs better?
Why do some people ask about 'bullet stabilization' of a 100gr out of a 1:10 twist?
Does this only matter at range? If yes, what kind of range are we talking here?

I learned I should be cooling 2 mins between shots
 
My experiences will be different , but maybe to give you perspective. I have never used a bipod - at most, have shot from sandbags off a shooting table at 100 yard targets.

Two shooters, same rifle, same ammo, same scope - swapping turns for three shot and five shot groups. My son would get 3 inch groups. I would get inch and a quarter groups. Both of us have taken many dozen white tail and mule deer with that same rifle and ammo - is his only big game rifle at the moment.

Bazillions of deer and moose taken with 2 MOA or "worse" rifles. The very best sniper rifles of WWII - the No. 4 (T), after tuning by Holland and Holland, needed to do about 2 1/2 MOA and away they went to war. You are already ahead of that? So your issue may not be your gear?

"Kill zone" on a deer - heart lung area - say 10" diameter - so, if you can call the windage and elevation needed, a 2 MOA rifle will work to 500 yards into a 10" circle. Most of us do not have the experience to call either wind or elevation that close in the field when deer hunting, so that is an extremely long shot to take - even for an experienced guy with a great solid rest. Most of the deer I have taken and seen taken are sort of 200 yards and less - really, really unusual to see a guy actually drop a deer at much more than that - I have seen lots of shots fired at those ranges, though...
 
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Potashminer said:
My experiences will be different , but maybe to give you perspective. I have never used a bipod - at most, have shot from sandbags off a shooting table at 100 yard targets.

Two shooters, same rifle, same ammo, same scope - swapping turns for three shot and five shot groups. My son would get 3 inch groups. I would get inch and a quarter groups. Both of us have taken many dozen white tail and mule deer with that same rifle and ammo - is his only big game rifle at the moment.

Bazillions of deer and moose taken with 2 MOA or "worse" rifles. The very best sniper rifles of WWII - the No. 4 (T), after tuning by Holland and Holland, needed to do about 2 1/2 MOA and away they went to war. You are already ahead of that? So your issue may not be your gear?
Click to expand...

Good advice from Potashminer. While we all like to have our rifles shoot 1" or less groups, it is not needed for hunting at normal distances. The most important thing is that it puts the first shot, on a cold barrel, in same spot. Also, some will sight in their rifle and then give the barrel a vigorous cleaning and assume they are ready to go hunting. It is always best to hunt with a slightly fouled barrel. ie. put one or two shots down the barrel and then leave it until you are done hunting.

Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not saying you should give up on your quest for better accuracy. It is all part of the process and makes reloading your own interesting and satisfying. Good luck.
 
Good Friend of mine shoots a .300 Weatherby Magnum made in Germany. He is a very experienced Mountain hunter used this .300 WM for most of his 35 plus years killed almost every kind of big Game available in BC multiple times over. However on the Range under ideal conditions solid concrete Bench Sandbags and all his shots barely do 1.5 inch groups at 100 meters. He is a short Guy and has the silly habit holding with his Fingers the Rifle Barrel down hard over the for-end from the Stock.

Without much effort I can get a 1.25" 5 Shot group with this Rifle under the same conditions Sandbags and all except I allways hold the Stock on the Forend pulling it hard into my Shoulder.

Cheers
 
In pursuit of better accuracy, do not let that "new" or "nearly new" business about your rifle get in the way. Bedding is a big step and can improve most rifles. Most factory stuff is made "good enough" - you can tune it to be the "best it can be". Will take some research and reading to find out how to set up a Mauser 98, which essentially is what your Zastava likely is - mag box not touching receiver underneath, no bending or torquing on receiver as action screws tightened, barrel fully clear throughout the barrel channel, or else solid even contact all the way, and so on. Not just your load affects the result - so does the rifle and how it is set up. Factory new or not...
 
Lots of things could cause your poor groups.

Don't shoot off a bipod - shoot off a sandbag. Loading a bipod poorly can result in bad shooting even if the load and the rifle are good. I'm assuming you're a competent shooter generally, and this isn't your first rifle.

I buy a box of Federal Gold Medal Match for most of my rifles to see what a well loaded appropriate round will do - this eliminates most of the 'me' from the the rifles potential. Most of the time. Any high quality loading that is appropriate for your rifle can give you a benchmark. If buddy sold it after 30 rounds, maybe it just doesn't group well.

5 minutes of research suggests that at least one other shooter had success at 43g of IMR4831 and 100g interlocks in a .243, my suggestion would be to start at the minimum and work up to that. Hodgdon list 43 as the max with a 100gr proj. Work in .3gr increments - once you have eliminated your potentially poor shooting from the equation. Look for the best group and go from there.

Are you trickling your loads? Your setup is a budget one (same as mine) and budget setups need more time spent making sure things are where they need to be. Slow and steady is the way here, sometimes scrapping a powder pour and starting over. Your groups will struggle to stabilize stabilize for example if your charge weight varies, or your seating stroke on the press isn't the same every time. Or you're using mixed brass.

Finding a good load is easy, finding the best load is harder.

Can you stretch out to 100yds/m? 100 yds is OK for getting a basic idea of load performance.
 
Potashminer said:
My experiences will be different , but maybe to give you perspective. I have never used a bipod - at most, have shot from sandbags off a shooting table at 100 yard targets.

Two shooters, same rifle, same ammo, same scope - swapping turns for three shot and five shot groups. My son would get 3 inch groups. I would get inch and a quarter groups. Both of us have taken many dozen white tail and mule deer with that same rifle and ammo - is his only big game rifle at the moment.

Bazillions of deer and moose taken with 2 MOA or "worse" rifles. The very best sniper rifles of WWII - the No. 4 (T), after tuning by Holland and Holland, needed to do about 2 1/2 MOA and away they went to war. You are already ahead of that? So your issue may not be your gear?

"Kill zone" on a deer - heart lung area - say 10" diameter - so, if you can call the windage and elevation needed, a 2 MOA rifle will work to 500 yards into a 10" circle. Most of us do not have the experience to call either wind or elevation that close in the field when deer hunting, so that is an extremely long shot to take - even for an experienced guy with a great solid rest. Most of the deer I have taken and seen taken are sort of 200 yards and less - really, really unusual to see a guy actually drop a deer at much more than that - I have seen lots of shots fired at those ranges, though...
Click to expand...

Thankyou for your reply,
I agree that I will be shooting at deer under 200yds, and with 2" groups, the deer should pass very quickly.

My intention is just a crusade to find something that performs sub moa AND will take deer, its not that I won't be happy until I do find it. I'm trying to see if it is possible and more importantly if its possible for ME
 
BioPace said:
Lots of things could cause your poor groups.

Don't shoot off a bipod - shoot off a sandbag. Loading a bipod poorly can result in bad shooting even if the load and the rifle are good. I'm assuming you're a competent shooter generally, and this isn't your first rifle.

I buy a box of Federal Gold Medal Match for most of my rifles to see what a well loaded appropriate round will do - this eliminates most of the 'me' from the the rifles potential. Most of the time. Any high quality loading that is appropriate for your rifle can give you a benchmark. If buddy sold it after 30 rounds, maybe it just doesn't group well.

5 minutes of research suggests that at least one other shooter had success at 43g of IMR4831 and 100g interlocks in a .243, my suggestion would be to start at the minimum and work up to that. Hodgdon list 43 as the max with a 100gr proj. Work in .3gr increments - once you have eliminated your potentially poor shooting from the equation. Look for the best group and go from there.

Are you trickling your loads? Your setup is a budget one (same as mine) and budget setups need more time spent making sure things are where they need to be. Slow and steady is the way here, sometimes scrapping a powder pour and starting over. Your groups will struggle to stabilize stabilize for example if your charge weight varies, or your seating stroke on the press isn't the same every time. Or you're using mixed brass.

Finding a good load is easy, finding the best load is harder.

Can you stretch out to 100yds/m? 100 yds is OK for getting a basic idea of load performance.
Click to expand...

I will have to shoot off a sandbag,
I was loading onto a bipod the way I do for a machine gun, which made sense at the time, and not very much now...
(placing legs on the ground and then using my toes to rock forward onto them until there was quite a bit of forward tension)

I will buy a box Federal Gold Medal Match, in buddy's defense, he was using iron sights and said he was hitting a 6" gong at 50yds which this rifle and load is more than capable of.

I want to stress that I did a lot more research than 5 Mins into this before I decided to waste you fine gentlemen's time with my novice questions. If you wouldn't mind, can you send me the link where this is discussed?
I have also seen 100gr HBTSPs claiming awesome accuracy... from a barrel with a different (read faster) twist. My primary question regarding the bullets is if I should scrap them for something shorter and therefore lighter (85-95gr) which are according to JBM Ballistics calculator going to work better in my rifle.

I am using a digital powder scale and the Lee Perfect Powder Measure, measuring the load each time.

I could stretch out to 100yds, and if you recommend that I will do that next.

I did record my load, elevation of sight, temperature, ballistic coefficient, windspeed, and bullet type into the JBM calculator and it came up with .4 MOA low at 50yds means I should be on at 100 yds which is where I plan to set zero
 
Pull the bipod off, shoot over bags for sure - rear supported with a bag and front supported on the stock, not the barrel. Ensure that your sling stud doesn't catch on the front bag during recoil. Absolutely stretch out to 100 yards.
 
Hi
According to the IMR load data online, for 243 win shooting a 100grain bullet, the min load for IMR 4831 is 39.2 gr and the max is 43.
So it looks like you started at the max load (which I would not ever do). Not sure why you did that?

If I were you, using IMR 4831, I would load 3 (or 5) at 40, 40.5. 41. 41.5, 42, 42.5 and spend an afternoon shooting with a 2 min break between shots
I would do as others suggest, use sandbags, no bipod. At 100 m (or Y as the case may be)

I would also check to make sure the barrel is free floated using a piece of paper.
Also make sure you hold the rifle the same every time, and are not putting pressure on the barrel with the way you hold it.
Take the sling off if there is one on.

BTW there is nothing wrong with Hornady bullets. They are not "target" or "Match", they are hunting bullets. Made to different tolerances and priced accordingly.
I have shot many a deer with 140 grain Hornady BTSP in a 270 rifle as do all the guys in my group.

If none of those group to your liking, do the same with the another powder but you will notice IMR 3031 is not listed on the IMR site for the bullet weight and caliber you are using.
Perhaps there are some suggested starting loads in a book, again, start at the low end, work up by 1/2 grain, see what groups the best.

You may find that the "best" group is nothing special. So be it.

You can now decide to:
a) try seating the bullets a different length
b) try a different bullet weight, or brand
c) try a different powder
d) be happy with the group and go hunting after practicing more

You may find more practice shooting is all you need.

Many many people shoot factory ammo and are quite happy with the groups. The deer won't care either.

Have fun
 
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