FN Winchester Model 70 South Carolina v. Portugal

Leeper is Baco still currently making the Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather ? Is Baco the USA manufacturer and then they are assembled in Portugal .Sorry I think I get what you are saying but not positive . Maybe someone here can post a picture of the problem and show everyone what’s going on . The problem I have is I’m quite anal when purchasing items. Firearms even more I don’t want a lemon and Icertainly don’t want one that is unsafe !!Thank you for the reply !

Leavenworth

I remember you and I looking for one of these around the same time . Well, after owning mine for almost a year now I can say it’s fantastic. I also have Tikka’s etc , but always go to my Winchester EW 3006 . Mine is a New Haven plant rifle, not sure if that matters . All I know is,you will never see it for sale . If you find a good shooter , keep it . One thing I learned here .
 
Leavenworth

I remember you and I looking for one of these around the same time . Well, after owning mine for almost a year now I can say it’s fantastic. I also have Tikka’s etc , but always go to my Winchester EW 3006 . Mine is a New Haven plant rifle, not sure if that matters . All I know is,you will never see it for sale . If you find a good shooter , keep it . One thing I learned here .
This is good news ! Thank You for posting that up !
Leavenworth
 
Mwic98,

I didn’t think the Extreme Weathers were made before South Carolina, but I could be wrong. Yours is from New Haven with a factory Bell and Carlson? Not challenging you, just surprised.
 
I know I’m getting back late to this issue but I guess I really don’t understand how to measure it ! If anyone on here has an Model 70 SS Extreme Weather and could take a picture of exactly how to measure it ,maybe a picture of it being measured with the reading would be awesome . Maybe let me know what your claw / extractor measured and if you had any problems with it . I know I’m asking a lot but would really like to see it .
Thanks Leavenworth

I’m not a gunsmith or machinist, and I can't see the pictures posted last year, but I think I see what Mr. Leeper is talking about. I’ve attached pictures of a Portuguese-made Model 70 Extreme Weather bolt showing the gap between the extractor claw and the front of the groove on the cartridge case. I believe that he’s correct in that this results in a slight loss of primary extraction. Specifically, during a few degrees of bolt lift - when the bolt is camming out of the locking recesses - the extractor is not engaging on the cartridge rim. This means that for that short amount of bolt lift, it’s just taking up slack before grabbing the case and pulling it out of the chamber.

I measured the distance from the bolt face to the extractor groove and I came up with about 0.050”. This matches Mr. Leeper’s math and his opinion that it’s machined 0.023” too close. Rearward bolt travel during primary extraction is about 0.120" (give or take), so roughly 17% of that potential camming effort is wasted taking up the gap.

TA1eVkU.jpg


As a comparison, I’ve also shown the bolt from a Swedish Mauser (the only other CRF reference that was handy). You’ll note that there’s not nearly the gap as there is on the M70.

rBy7ooo.jpg

axnCdwJ.jpg


I don’t think that this is a manufacturing defect. In my opinion, there’s too much engineering effort that goes into these for this to be a mistake. If I had to make an uneducated guess, the extra room under the extractor claw might be there to aid in feeding from the magazine. It would allow the cartridge to point up from the horizontal slightly and still slide smoothly under the claw as the bolt moves forward. Tightening things up a bit may introduce feeding issues.

Prior to reading this thread, I was unaware that this so-called ‘issue’ even existed. There’s nothing but praise for the FN South Carolina made guns, and the same remains true for the ones made in Portugal. In fact, having heard such great things about the FN/SC-made guns, I’d been looking for one for some time. I was quite excited when I saw a shipment come in at one of the site sponsors. I promptly bought one, picked it up a week later and brought it home. Imagine the crushing disappointment I felt when I looked at the marks on the barrel and realized that this thing was made in Portugal. I had no idea they’d moved production there.

Then I shot it, and all that buyer’s remorse evaporated.

R8hKpPn.jpg


This is a 0.4 MOA group (accounting for .308 projectile diameter) at 100 yards with factory ammo and a stock rifle. I consider myself only an ‘okay’ shot; certainly nothing above average.

The gun is fine: exceptionally well made, incredibly smooth, light weight and very accurate. There’s no one that owns one that’ll tell you different.
 
I’m not a gunsmith or machinist, and I can't see the pictures posted last year, but I think I see what Mr. Leeper is talking about. I’ve attached pictures of a Portuguese-made Model 70 Extreme Weather bolt showing the gap between the extractor claw and the front of the groove on the cartridge case. I believe that he’s correct in that this results in a slight loss of primary extraction. Specifically, during a few degrees of bolt lift - when the bolt is camming out of the locking recesses - the extractor is not engaging on the cartridge rim. This means that for that short amount of bolt lift, it’s just taking up slack before grabbing the case and pulling it out of the chamber.



I measured the distance from the bolt face to the extractor groove and I came up with about 0.050”. This matches Mr. Leeper’s math and his opinion that it’s machined 0.023” too close. Rearward bolt travel during primary extraction is about 0.120" (give or take), so roughly 17% of that potential camming effort is wasted taking up the gap.

TA1eVkU.jpg


As a comparison, I’ve also shown the bolt from a Swedish Mauser (the only other CRF reference that was handy). You’ll note that there’s not nearly the gap as there is on the M70.

rBy7ooo.jpg

axnCdwJ.jpg


I don’t think that this is a manufacturing defect. In my opinion, there’s too much engineering effort that goes into these for this to be a mistake. If I had to make an uneducated guess, the extra room under the extractor claw might be there to aid in feeding from the magazine. It would allow the cartridge to point up from the horizontal slightly and still slide smoothly under the claw as the bolt moves forward. Tightening things up a bit may introduce feeding issues.

Prior to reading this thread, I was unaware that this so-called ‘issue’ even existed. There’s nothing but praise for the FN South Carolina made guns, and the same remains true for the ones made in Portugal. In fact, having heard such great things about the FN/SC-made guns, I’d been looking for one for some time. I was quite excited when I saw a shipment come in at one of the site sponsors. I promptly bought one, picked it up a week later and brought it home. Imagine the crushing disappointment I felt when I looked at the marks on the barrel and realized that this thing was made in Portugal. I had no idea they’d moved production there.

Then I shot it, and all that buyer’s remorse evaporated.

R8hKpPn.jpg


This is a 0.4 MOA group (accounting for .308 projectile diameter) at 100 yards with factory ammo and a stock rifle. I consider myself only an ‘okay’ shot; certainly nothing above average.

The gun is fine: exceptionally well made, incredibly smooth, light weight and very accurate. There’s no one that owns one that’ll tell you different.
Aero 125. You sir are a prince ! Thank you for taking the time to explain , measure, take pictures and post it all up !! . . Mr.Leepers post to my concerns and your pictures and conclusions have made this situation understandable for me . Is there a feedback function on GunNutz for help provided ?
Again Thank You !! Will your posted pictures remain up for awhile ?
Leavenworth
 
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Mwic98,

I didn’t think the Extreme Weathers were made before South Carolina, but I could be wrong. Yours is from New Haven with a factory Bell and Carlson? Not challenging you, just surprised.
Wonder how someone could find out ,maybe contact Winchester . Iam interested/thinking on what I think is an Extreme Weather it has a B&C stock on it and it is Stainless Steel . The barrel is stamped New Haven. I guess it could just be a stainless Model 70 with a B&C stock . I.m not exactly sure what makes an Extreme Weather an Extreme Weather ??
Leavenworth
 
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Never noticed the gap. Nor do i really care. Its about 4yrs old. Fluted barrel
 

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Wonder how someone could find out ,maybe contact Winchester . Iam interested/thinking on what I think is an Extreme Weather it has a B&C stock on it and it is Stainless Steel . The barrel is stamped New Haven. I guess it could just be a stainless Model 70 with a B&C stock . I.m not exactly sure what makes an Extreme Weather an Extreme Weather ??
Leavenworth

For one thing, I am 99% they have had fluted barrels from the beginning. I am also pretty sure they weren’t made before 2010 or so. Winchester moved the operation to SC in 2008.
 
For one thing, I am 99% they have had fluted barrels from the beginning.

The shadow elite model had a fluted barrel but it had a Tupperware stock.

I think that as long as you have a fluted barrel and a B&C stock you have an extreme weather. The early model EW rifles had a black B&C stock without the white webbing.
 
I agree. Not likely an engineering defect. The greater play allows for a faster "pickup" as the bolt peals off a cartridge IMO.

And I disagree. They were made correctly and worked like a hot damn for 75 years. This is a mistake, plain and simple. If a deliberate change, it is a stupid one. I am not inclined to give manufacturers a pass when they mess up a design.
 
And I disagree. They were made correctly and worked like a hot damn for 75 years. This is a mistake, plain and simple. If a deliberate change, it is a stupid one. I am not inclined to give manufacturers a pass when they mess up a design.

I've had lots of pre-64 M-70's and a few "classic" models, none of them ever had a problem with feeding or "pickup" that warranted making a change to the design.
 
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