For anyone doubting the quality and reliability of a Norc M4

harbl_the_cat said:
I think there's a very good probability the US will become a slave-labour country.

Back to the OP though - I like the Pilo-peeno "Army" torture test :)

Right out of the box:

5" group at 150m with the iron sights.
4 mags - full auto - no stoppages

All in a sandy, dusty range in da Pilo-peens.

I'd say that's good enough for me.
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That's what I would describe as "bare minimum function".

I would equate that test to getting in a car, starting it up, driving it to the end of the parking lot, taking your foot off the gas, and seeing that it doesn't stall.

I do agree it's NECESSARY that it pass that test...however if that's the extent of the testing, I would feel comfortable describing the quality of the gun as "somewhere between the absolute bare acceptable minimum, and some unknown level above that".

If they ran it through FORTY mags without a stoppage I might be interested.

And more importantly, if they ran fifty norinco ARs through forty mags each without much in the way of stoppages, I WOULD be interested.

But a hundred and twenty rounds without a stoppage...christ, my dog could build an AR that would meet that standard using nothing but old shoe polish and toothpaste.
 
greentips said:
I am sure the Chinese can make a weapon that is of the quality of LMT or BCM at 1/3 of the cost, but people want to pay only 1/5 of the cost to pocket even deeper margin in exchange for lower quality and volume. That's why you see so many cheap Chinese stuff because they allow the distributor/importer get even more cut while keeping the final price cheap enough. That is how western companies and consumers got addicted.

Look - 1/4 of the cost, but 1/2 of the price that drives the volume beyond 2X. That is the equation that drives Chinese goods in Western nations. Sit down in front of excel and draw a graph - every merchant knows the equation!

The chinese simply generate more value per dollar in their products. You have to give them the credit- that allows the merchants in the west to exploit the advantages to create super high margin while at the same time achieving price point to jack up volume! This is not limited to firearms - -anything that are Chinese, from textile goods to home appliances! In returns, the US keeps this going by borrowing the money they paid to Chinese from the Chinese.

The only hold out for Americans companies is the 89 Assault Weapon Import ban. It is one of the few consumer markets that the Chinese has not cracked due to regulations. As long as the importers are content to corner themselves to the lower end of the market - we will see functional but asethetically mediocre Chinese goods.

However, we are already seeing the next step - low cost chinese goods with better quality are being push to the premier price range. It is like the transition of Japan starting about 40 years ago. One day we may put Chinese products on the same level as Japanese.....and the next cheap slave country somewhere in south east asia or africa will replace China.
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Thank you for pointing this out, you explained this a lot calmer than I would have. For anyone to say: "The chinese CAN'T make nice stuff" they are retarded. Anyone can make nice stuff, it's not like the chinese are an inferior race of people, they just don't care what we think because we buy everything they make. To say the chinese have a history of crappy products means nothing. If you went over there with money, ran your own factory and used cheap chinese labour, you would have a good product. This is simply because you would control the QC of production, and you'd fire anyone who doesn't make quality stuff. Sure they'd be confused at first, but you'd be the one paying them.

In the end you'd be able to offer the same quality as western offerings at a lower price.
 
Rocket Surgery said:
Thank you for pointing this out, you explained this a lot calmer than I would have. For anyone to say: "The chinese CAN'T make nice stuff" they are retarded. Anyone can make nice stuff, it's not like the chinese are an inferior race of people, they just don't care what we think because we buy everything they make. To say the chinese have a history of crappy products means nothing. If you went over there with money, ran your own factory and used cheap chinese labour, you would have a good product. This is simply because you would control the QC of production, and you'd fire anyone who doesn't make quality stuff. Sure they'd be confused at first, but you'd be the one paying them.

In the end you'd be able to offer the same quality as western offerings at a lower price.
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Exactly. The Chinese are every bit as capable as any other nation or people.
China bangs out products and we buy them. Why the hell would they even bother to increase the level of "final polish" their products receive if we're buying their stuff up like hot-cakes?

I have absolutely zero doubt the Chinese can produce AR's (or any other product for that matter) on par or better than any NA company. And they can do it for less money. But why bother? They are making a 100% profit AND at insane volumes. That's an amazing formula, why mess with it?

As was said earlier, they're going to go the way of Japan. Their products will slowly get better and better. Eventually, in 20 years or so, we'll all be clamoring for Norinco AR's and cars and refrigerators, ect...

Sadly, I think China is using their economy as an instrument of war. They are destroying the United States by lending them money to buy more Chinese products. I think the future for the US is pretty damn sad and scary.
 
Rocket Surgery said:
Thank you for pointing this out, you explained this a lot calmer than I would have. For anyone to say: "The chinese CAN'T make nice stuff" they are retarded. Anyone can make nice stuff, it's not like the chinese are an inferior race of people, they just don't care what we think because we buy everything they make. To say the chinese have a history of crappy products means nothing. If you went over there with money, ran your own factory and used cheap chinese labour, you would have a good product. This is simply because you would control the QC of production, and you'd fire anyone who doesn't make quality stuff. Sure they'd be confused at first, but you'd be the one paying them.

In the end you'd be able to offer the same quality as western offerings at a lower price.
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There is also a cultural difference in the work place in China, india and other similar countries as compared to North America. Workers do not think for themselves and thrive under strong leadership but break down when left to problem solve on their own. If you look at these countries its quite evident that they are not pioneers or innovators.
 
greg11 said:
Sadly, I think China is using their economy as an instrument of war. They are destroying the United States by lending them money to buy more Chinese products. I think the future for the US is pretty damn sad and scary.
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Completely the opposite, Manufacturing is moving out of china. to the point the largest single component of Chinese GDP is infrastructure projects and not exports. The money leant to the U.S by China is not actually money, its a promise to pay back money, that can be broken at any time or repaid with devalued newly printed money. China's export market will tank the minute they stop manipulating their currency down as it will be cheaper to bring goods back home or move them to other emerging markets.
 
North Eastern Arms said:
Completely the opposite, Manufacturing is moving out of china. to the point the largest single component of Chinese GDP is infrastructure projects and not exports. The money leant to the U.S by China is not actually money, its a promise to pay back money, that can be broken at any time or repaid with devalued newly printed money. China's export market will tank the minute they stop manipulating their currency down as it will be cheaper to bring goods back home or move them to other emerging markets.
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Both your points are interesting.

Your first one about the "spirit" of the workers in Asia is interesting. You're driving at the pioneering spirit of North Americans, and having recently watched "America: the Story of US" I can see the point. I do think we've forged an can do attitude in many respects. I know if I'm left with a ridiculous task which I haven't been trained for, I'll do my damnedest to figure it out and get cracking on it, even without being told to do so (except when it comes to mechanic work on cars and motorcycles, that #### blows my mind).

Your second is also interesting....

Lately I've been confused over what to think about the world economy. Is the US screwing itself, or is their massive debt part of a larger plan to crush countries like China, India and Russia (yes, I recently heard someone discussing India as an adversary of the US in terms of regional power in South Asia.).

Perhaps we could start another topic in the off-topic section of the forum, because I'd love to hear some well spoken and researched perspectives on the subject. Part of me thinks the US is doomed, but then, I see it from your perspective as well... And I always have in the back of my mind that yes, there are very intelligent thinkers in the Pentagon and within the US banking system, surely there is a method to what appears to us as madness. So, perhaps you're totally bang on.
 
greg11 said:
Your second is also interesting....

Lately I've been confused over what to think about the world economy. Is the US screwing itself, or is their massive debt part of a larger plan to crush countries like China, India and Russia (yes, I recently heard someone discussing India as an adversary of the US in terms of regional power in South Asia.).

Perhaps we could start another topic in the off-topic section of the forum, because I'd love to hear some well spoken and researched perspectives on the subject. Part of me thinks the US is doomed, but then, I see it from your perspective as well... And I always have in the back of my mind that yes, there are very intelligent thinkers in the Pentagon and within the US banking system, surely there is a method to what appears to us as madness. So, perhaps you're totally bang on.
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China has to keep buying U.S treasuries or risk creating a panic which devalues the 3 trillion they are sitting on. the U.S can print money all day long to repay debt because they are and will be for quite some time the worlds reserve currency. other countries are now forced to also print money or risk having their currency raise in value against the U.S dollar, thus killing exports. The U.S is in the best possible position. Dont listen to all the scare mongering about the dollar being replaced as a reserve currency. what is it going to be replaced with? IMF SDR's? the U.S is the single largest backer of the IMF. China will not allow their currency to replace the dollar as it would kill their exports as well. What is left? the Euro, hahahahah, it might not survive the next 6 months.
 
North Eastern Arms said:
There is also a cultural difference in the work place in China, india and other similar countries as compared to North America. Workers do not think for themselves and thrive under strong leadership but break down when left to problem solve on their own. If you look at these countries its quite evident that they are not pioneers or innovators.
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Good response, I read and understand exactly what you're saying and agree. What have the Chinese invented in the last 50 years compared to what they've copied or improved from creative westerners?

I do however point out that the Chinese are completely capable of making quality products at a lower cost, simply because their workers are paid less. People are dying to get those factory jobs in the capitalist zones, it pays well when you compare it to chasing chickens in the country. You could go there with QC in mind, and run a shop that produces high quality goods. It's easy to teach someone how to do a simple task well, and if you break down the production enough, your workers will start getting very good at what they do.
 
North Eastern Arms said:
China has to keep buying U.S treasuries or risk creating a panic which devalues the 3 trillion they are sitting on. the U.S can print money all day long to repay debt because they are and will be for quite some time the worlds reserve currency. other countries are now forced to also print money or risk having their currency raise in value against the U.S dollar, thus killing exports. The U.S is in the best possible position. Dont listen to all the scare mongering about the dollar being replaced as a reserve currency. what is it going to be replaced with? IMF SDR's? the U.S is the single largest backer of the IMF. China will not allow their currency to replace the dollar as it would kill their exports as well. What is left? the Euro, hahahahah, it might not survive the next 6 months.
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And this is precisely one of the reasons the USA can offer their population consumer commodities below market value. Everything is priced in USD, so they are able to purchase all goods without having to exchange currencies. The problem here is that all money loaned to the USA gov't from the Fed has debt attached to it, and then when it's loaned to the banks, they lend out 20x more than they have with debt attached. There is just simply not enough money to pay back all the debt. Something like 3% of the USA's money actually exists? This sounds like fear mongering! It's not. You can actually beat this system when you have growth, and lots of it. The problem with this type of system is that the common person gets completely eaten alive by the man, so eventually, it has to be regulated. The good news is that capitalism has improved the standard of living more in the last 100 years worldwide than anything socialism can touch.

I like being able to live in a society where creativity allows me to carve a living. Once you take the focus off the individual and govern by macro, mass apathy kicks in. There is no point working hard in a steel factory if you can't get promoted or fired.

You may think the Americans have more freedom, but you'd be ignorant. They don't actually control their own money supply, therefore they are slaves to private banks. If I had the choice whether to control the gun or money supply, it would be easy, cash can create guns. Canada actually owns our national bank and we have competent people running it. We are also backed by a ridiculous amount of resources and technology, making us one of the world's true financial juggernauts.

There's nothing sadder than Americans who think they're free because of the 2nd amendment, not knowing that their country is really run by private bankers. Money is far more powerful than firearms, and it's easy to convince people you trust them if you give them weaponry.

I can't quote Machiavelli right now because I haven't read his work since grade 10, but he covers this somewhere in The Prince.
 
Man, I'd love to live in a world where I can avoid thought with simplistic equations. Boiling down complex subjects by regurgitating rhetoric only works when you want to get people mad or win an election.
 
Ok, so I have read through the whole thread and about a million ones like it. As far as I can tell, Norinco has a large fan base of satisfied customers and then a group of people who claim they are not nearly as good as other manufacturers.

The people who say their not that good, do they even own one? Do they have threads on the exchange selling the Norinco products that they hate after giving them a fair trial period, or are they pretty much saying 'I paid three times as much therefore it is guaranteed that my gun is three times better'?

Considering my RPAL is less then a month away I would really like to know if these people own the gun their so ready to criticize to help me make decisions too.

I have no problem paying for quality but I'm not going to run out for a Rolls Royce Phantom when a Cadillac will more then suite my needs.
 
I have a Norinco M4 , Norinco HP 9 , Norinco 1911 45 ACP , and 2 poltytech M-305,s ......and all of them are very good value for the money , I would recommend them as a good purchase to anyone looking for these types of firerarms.

I bought them all used of the EE so for what I paid for them I got them all for not much more than the price of a new North American AR plus tax ....so for me it was the right choice.

Are they as good as the originals ??? I didnt expect them to be but they function perfectly and the m-305,s were the only ones that required tweaking and some new parts to function better and suit my needs .
 
I guess the Norc CQ gets to be the new Robarms XCR on CGN :p.

Over 1200 through mine, only cleaned out of the box and never since with not one stoppage.

Factory mags may be crap but who really cares?
 
Just for fun, I mounted a cheap and nasty old scope on my Norc to see what it was capable of. All I had was some steel case MFS, but it still shot into 2.5 inches at 200 :) About 80 rounds down range so far, and I'm a happy camper!
 
Normally I avoid norinco threads like the plague, but im glad I read this one. Very interesting opinions on the world market, thanks guys. Maybe someone can start a thread in the OT and we can discuss further.
 
i love mine. i was able to add everything i wanted to it, buy 500 rnds and still cost less than the other ar's on the market. have had my rifle for about 8-9 months now, at least 1000 rnds through it and no preblems. i can certainly say that my rifle is RELIABLE.
 
The Norinco 1911's I have owned have been embarrassingly accurate as have been every M305/m14 I have owned. Wish I could have them all back. I have a M4 coming and can hardly wait to shoot it. Need to get some p mags ...
 
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