For those needing a 9.3

Very flattering for the 375 H&H to have so many cartridges claim to be: "almost as good as"; "as good as"; or even "better" than the 375 H&H.

Inquiring minds would love to know how the 9.3x64, with a smaller bore size (0.366" vs. 0.375") and a smaller case (87 grs vs. 96 grs), can match and even beat the old 375 H&H at the same pressures. The more efficient, less powder thing is of particular interest. Must be some magical "venturizing" effect to do with the unique bottleneck case - just fascinating.

As for sectional density and penetration, the immensely different bore size really puts that 0.009" difference to work. A full 4% less frontal area!

Time to put the 375 H&H on the block at fire sale prices.
 
Someone get this man some Primrose!:rolleyes:

Andy, we all know nothing is going to exactly duplicate your Holy Grail. The Brenneke comes very close fromthe limited info I have found so far.

I didn't post this thread to get people slagging eachother, it was in hopes to find someone else with experience with the cartridge to see if it was indeed true.

It is hard to find a chambering from that golden age that can be used in a standard length action and doesn't cost a mint to get brass and such to use it.

Now go eat your beakfast and don't forget your vitamins!:p
 
Now go eat your beakfast and don't forget your vitamins!

And check your math too ;)

This is great news about Hornaday's venture into 9.3 offerings. I think I would (probably will some day) stick with 9.3x62 as my rifle of choice although its good to know that the bigger X64 etc. cases won't be dieing any time soon :)
 
Since we are all into math I posted this in another thread about the 9.3x62.
(thread link http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92944)



The search for the best ‘All-around cartridge’, the one cartridge best capable of collecting animals ranging from small deer to elephants has certainly produced more printed words than any other hunting subject. Unfortunately, a candidate for this title must be a compromise.

It won’t be a particularly good rifle for either deer or elephant, but certainly would be good for anything in-between. African hunters, with their tremendous range of animals, developed the following system for classifying cartridges -

Large Bores- ‘Heavy’ calibers that were used for elephants in very heavy brush at very short range. They were designed as ‘Stoppers’, sure to turn a charge or stun the elephant with any reasonably accurate brain shot so that a deadly follow-up shot could be obtained.

’Medium’ Calibers - These cartridges are the great ‘all-arounders’, capable of killing even a charging elephant reliably, in the open, but also used for everything else.

‘Light bores’ -Cartridges useful for collecting the many small animals that are in the African bush but, except in the hands of very accurate hunters, will not reliably kill heavy animals such as buffalo or rhinos.


Now Listen up!
North American hunters need nothing larger than the 'Medium Bores' even for the largest game.

Everyone’s list of ‘all around cartridges’ includes the .375 H&H Magnum. It has been shown over the years to be able to get the job done. It is also one of the most over-rated cartridges that I know of. It is L-O-N-G and requires a heavy magnum action. The belt makes it hard to reload, and it burns 70 to 80 grains of powder. This is inefficient and unnecessarily results in higher recoil because the mass of the burning powder is a significant factor in producing recoil. Anything it can do, the 9.3X64 Brenneke can do better. Both cartridges are more powerful than needed for North American game

9.3X62 mm. Mauser - ‘Enough Gun’
According to the highly respected John Taylor in his book, ‘African Rifles and Cartridges’, this cartridge was designed around 1905 for the German colonists in Africa who were unhappy with the cartridges then available to them. It quickly became the most widely used African ‘Medium Caliber" and remained so until after World War II, when the .375 H&H Magnum and similar cartridges largely replaced it. Part of the reason for its immediate success was the high quality of the inexpensive Mauser rifles that it was chambered in. Another reason is its effective power. Taylor wrote, "The full-patch (solid) bullet has adequate penetration to kill an elephant from any reasonable angle; it will also kill rhino and buffalo on the shoulder shot. The plain soft-nose bullet can be used on everything else..." It made its reputation with a 286 grain bullet loaded to a relatively low muzzle velocity of 2175 feet per second, later increased to 2350 ft/sec.

The case is one millimeter shorter than the .30-06 and of .366 caliber. 30-06 or .35 Whelen cartridges should NOT be used for reloading the 9.3X62 Mauser. The 9.3X62 case has a larger diameter and premature case head separations may result with higher pressure handloads.

When used in open areas, Taylor wrote of the .350 Rigby Magnum with its 225 grain bullet at 2,600 ft/sec, "...,it is a splendidly effective shell and at ranges up to at least 150 yards kills just as instantaneously as the .375 Magnum." The .375 H&H Magnum was his favorite ‘medium’ cartridge so this is very high praise indeed. Well, guess what - the 9.3X62 has a "light’ bullet too, weighing 232 grains.

‘Sectional density’ (s.d.) is a fancy way to compare the ‘penetrating power or carrying power’ of a bullet. Assuming everything else is equal, a bullet with a higher s.d. will penetrate deeper and shoot farther than a bullet with a lower s.d.

So let’s compare the two using data as loaded by Norma for the 9.3X62.

Bullet Weight Velocity S.D. Energy (Ft-Lbs)
350 Rigby Magnum 225 gr 2,600 0.251 3,380
9.3x62 Mauser 232 gr 2,632 0.247 3,543

I suspect that if 'Pondoro' Taylor had ever had the opportunity to use this 232 grain load of the 9.3X62, he would have been very favorably impressed.

The 9.3X62 Mauser is widely used in Europe for hunting moose and similar large game. It possesses slightly more power than the .35 Whelen, even in that cartridge’s "Improved" forms, and has a better shoulder for proper headspacing than the .35 Whelen's rather marginal one. While the 9.3X62’s power is ample for anything on earth, its recoil is relatively mild - midway between that of the 30-06 and the .375 H&H Magnum. I recommend it highly for hunting the larger North American animals such as elk, the big bears and moose, while it also can be used with complete confidence as a general purpose Asian or African rifle. African professional hunter and writer Ganyana in 'Stopping Power Revisited' says the following - "I suspect that the reason many new hunters buy cannons is that they fail to realize just how easy it is to kill even the toughest game with a well-placed bullet.....My personal choice is the 9.3X62."

The 9.3X62 is loaded by factories to a maximum of about 50,000 p.s.i. The .375 H&H Magnum maximum is 62,000 p.s.i. and the .270 Winchester 65,000 ps.i., so the 9.3X62 Mauser case obviously can stand higher-pressure handloads. The .375 gained its tremendous reputation in double rifles with 26 inch barrels producing around 3800 ft-lbs. Using selected handloads with the 9.3X62 with 286 grain bullets, velocities a little above 2400 ft/sec in 24 inch barrels are safely obtained, resulting in right around 3800 ft-lbs of energy. For larger game like Cape Buffalo, this equals the famed .375 H&H Flanged with significantly less recoil while for smaller game, factory loads provide all of the power needed. The relatively low velocity of the 9.3X62 Mauser opens it to criticism from those shooters who delight in long range shooting. However, it has been shown numerous times that almost all game, both in the U.S. and in Africa, is killed within about 250 yards, so for hunters, this criticism is absolutely groundless. Factory 286 grain loads are about 4 inches low at 250 yards if sighted in 3 inches high at 100 yards, good handloads using RL-15 or Norma 203-B, going 2450 ft/sec, are 3 inches low at 250 yards, 9 inches low at 300 yards. Pressures seem reasonable - extraction is one finger, I reloaded the same 5 cases and after 6 reloadings there was no measurable increase, by micrometer, in case length. Of course, work up slowly, what works safely for my rifle may not work in yours, and remember, if you want magnum performance (and recoil), then get a magnum like the 9.3X64 Brenneke.

The Czech CZ550, with a classic controlled-feed Mauser action, good safety and fine trigger, currently can be had at a bargain-price in this caliber, considering its quality. It also has a 'set trigger' capability familiar to muzzleloaders. This is useful when waiting for an animal to move a few inches in thick brush to give you a killing shot. The Tikka, considerably more expensive and NOT a controlled-feed action, is also currently available in 9.3x62 Mauser.

Other acceptable ‘all around cartridges' for large North America game -


The .35 Whelen

The .338 Winchester Magnum
 
Well, I'm not going to get embroiled in a "which is better" argument, but in accordance with the title of the thread, I need a 9.3x64, despite the fact that I already have 3 - .375 H&H's.

Just because I want one.

And that's all the reason that's necessary.

I have, tucked away, one only Husqvarna large ring action, never drilled or tapped, that's destined to house a 9.3x64.

And then I shall be happy.

For a while.
 
For all intended hunting purposes .I think you would be hardpressed to see any difference in killing power between the .375 H&H and the 9.3x64.Although if you were to load both at the same pressures the .375 would have the edge.In my Steyr .375 H&H I can drive a 250gr.bullet at 3000fps,a 270gr @2820 and a 300gr @2705fps with less than .0005" casehead expansion.I don't think the 9.3x64 would be quite capable of that.Varminter,maybe you should bring up your 9.3 cases and I'll make a "real" cardridge (.375) out of it.-Rainer
 
Well, I've been looking around a bit for a building platform. I found an old, double set trigger Husqvarna in 9.3x57.:eek: It is a `98 Mauser action, not drilled for scope and the stock looks as though it has been on some rough trips. But for $349 for the gun plus a ream job to the barrel for another brown dollar +/- may or not get a very classic looking 9.3.
Drawback is the drop at the heel is huge and the forearm is quite small w/o any checkering which to me equals a handfull in any of the three bigger 9.3s we have spoke of so far. The double set trigger looks very nice, similar to a Brno 21H setup, as well with the dainty trigger guard.:cool:
There are express sites in the barrel with one flip up.

I would also need to D&T the poor old girl as I have no intention of going out betting it all on irons, for me squintees aren't up for the task.
By the time I am done getting it refinished and restocked I am not so sure I should go this route.

...but ooooooh, double set triggers........:) Express sites..mmmmmmm....:p
 
Tumbleweed said:
, I need a 9.3x64, despite the fact that I already have 3 - .375 H&H's.

Just because I want one.

And that's all the reason that's necessary.

I have, tucked away, one only Husqvarna large ring action, never drilled or tapped, that's destined to house a 9.3x64.

And then I shall be happy.

For a while.

That sounds like my wife talkin!:p She is not far off the truth either...
" But Honey, it's just one more, really......uh...Honey, wait, Baby, c'mon....":redface: :D
 
rainer said:
For all intended hunting purposes .I think you would be hardpressed to see any difference in killing power between the .375 H&H and the 9.3x64.Although if you were to load both at the same pressures the .375 would have the edge.In my Steyr .375 H&H I can drive a 250gr.bullet at 3000fps,a 270gr @2820 and a 300gr @2705fps with less than .0005" casehead expansion.I don't think the 9.3x64 would be quite capable of that.Varminter,maybe you should bring up your 9.3 cases and I'll make a "real" cardridge (.375) out of it.-Rainer
Perhaps,you should be necking down your "Magnum bottle look alike"of a cartridge,otherwise you won't be allowed in our next hunting camp.
All kidding aside,as Rainer said:there is not much difference in killing power between those two cartridges,but i do have to agree that the 375 is a wee bit overrated,although most Big Game cartridges are compared to that "English bottle".One thing is for sure though,if a cartridge needs less powder in order to drive a bullet with equal weight at the same velocity,then yes,i would say that given cartridge is more efficient and SD is a given factor in establishing penetration,certainly not the only one but an important one.I bet top dollars that,if iwere to use, say a270gr bullet driven at the same speed in a 375 and a 9.3mm,the 9.3mm would penetrate deeper and that was what i was on about the first time,even though the SD is not that great,it is still measureable.
In order to answer NOELS questions:My rifle is a Steyr ST,S stands for heavy Caliber and T is for Tropical,which means the barrel is a heavy hammerforged contour (19mm in diameter,i believe.)I get my brass sent from Austria,300 at the time to make it worthwhile and it is RWS brass,so it lasts a long time.I shot game with 232gr PPC-Norma-3000+ft/sec,250gr Ballistic Tip-2850ft/s,247gr Spire Points-and 257gr H-Mantel both RWS driven at about 2850f/sec and i also use a270gr Speer-2760f/s and the 286gr SP-Alaska-Norma at 2700f/sec for hunting.Some of them are not max loads,but they shoot 0.5MOA at 300yds,except the 270gr Speer shoots 1 MOA.I also use 230gr Jaktmatch-Lapua,which a match bullet,for long range shooting.My Steyr is a freebore,which means your max load can be higher than you read in Reloading books,as common max loads are nowhere near a max load in my rifle.I got aSwarovsky 3-12x56 on a Steyr quick detachable mounts,which makes it easy to switch in between as many scopes you want to use for your rifle.Steyr rifles are one of the most accurate rifles I and rainer have shot,especially in heavy calibers like the 9.3mm or a 375H&H.Holding subMOA way past 600+yards is just a matter of yourself being able to do so,because a Steyr will.If anyone needs 9.3x64 RWS brass,let me know and i will see what i can do.
 
skit said:
where in canada do you guys buy 9.3x62 brass?

I picked up a hundred rounds of Graff brass in the EE forum on this site.

I know Ralph Martini in Cranbrook had a quantity of good quality brass last year as well.
 
skit, you can make it out of 35 Whelan if you have to, first neck it up with a .375 expander so when you neck it back down to 9.3 it will have a bit of a false shoulder to rest upon. You only size it so your bolt will just close on the case so the shoulder is not too far back. Use a modest load and they will fireform to perfect shape.

As far as factory goods go, Ike has just been buying loaded Norma rounds so far that I have seen and keeping the brass. I am sure someone here will help you more that way.

Varminter, those are pretty god loads you have there, it sure would be cool to get an old warhorse rechambered to the Brenneke and go afield. Is it a handfull in recoil?

I found a link to that old Husky but this one is only a single set trigger and different trigger guard:
http://www.allans-armory.com/aapictures.asp?ItemId=141107SC

It still isn't quite what I want but is getting close. Too bad they didn't finish the forend more like Rigby did, and checker the forend too. It looks so unfinished with just the grip checkered.

Thanks for all the effort getting the info together guys, I have been reading so many article for the past five or six days I bet I'm telling my wife about it in my sleep. Maybe that's why she doesn't ask why I'm checking back herre so often!

Cheers,
Noel
 
Noel,I wouldn't recommend turning a 06 case into a 9.3x62.The casehead is weaker on a 06 case than on the 9.3x62.If you decide to do it anyway,measure your casehead expansion as you load up and stay within .0005" otherwise you might run the risk of a casehead seperation.-Rainer
 
I have a 9.3x64 Brenneke. I don't have much on game experience with the Brenneke, just one black bear that folded in it's tracks with a 286g partition at 2500 fps out of the 22" bbl.

I also have a 375H&H wich I have never shot anything with.

Recoil wise the two are the same and if you set two bullets on the table and step back a few feet you cannot see the .009" difference;) Debating the two is just about as silly as arguing the .007 difference between the 270 and 7mm's:D
 
Noel,I don't have any experience with the .35 Whelan cases,nevertheless,make sure you pay attention to your micrometer when you develope loads,especially using European data.RWS expressly states in their reloading manual not to use 06 brass to reform to 9.3x62.-Rainer
 
It is not the thickness or strength of the case, the 9.3x62 case is larger in diameter than the '06 case.

an RWS case is around .474 at the web and a WW 30-06 is around .467

I know guys who do it, and the case is a little funny looking, but if you pay attention to headspace, it is probably safe. If you set the shoulder back with each resizing, you will probably get an incipient separation sooner with an '06 case

with the availability of Lapua and maybe Hornady, there is really no reason to use 30-06 or 35 Whelen cases, but in a pinch I wouldn;t hesitate to do it.
 
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Republic of Alberta said:
I have a 9.3x64 Brenneke. I don't have much on game experience with the Brenneke, just one black bear that folded in it's tracks with a 286g partition at 2500 fps out of the 22" bbl.

I also have a 375H&H wich I have never shot anything with.

Recoil wise the two are the same and if you set two bullets on the table and step back a few feet you cannot see the .009" difference;) Debating the two is just about as silly as arguing the .007 difference between the 270 and 7mm's:D

I was hoping by some miracle that the recoil would be a bit less but deep down figured it would be up there. I will be looking for a pretty straight stocked rifle then. Thanks Republic.
Is your rifle a factory Brenneke or did you build it? What does she weigh in at?

Rainer, in all honesty, if I go for this project it will most likely go the Brenneke path, I know not everyone would agree with that but it is an odd and unusual, just like me.:redface: :D
Mentioning the 06 case reform was for anyone else happening on the thread, looking for brass. I am glad you mentioned it so they will pass on the idea as folly and go find the correct brass.;)
There is a great amount of info here, it covers near every aspect for a fledgling 9.3 lover who would like to get educated whether it is for them or not.
The only thing I'm not looking forward to is the recoil. I managed with my 375H&H well enough, so hopefully this will be about the same.:) Just in a more compact package.
 
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