Free Floating a Vanguard.

Eagleye

Eagleye

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There has been some exchange on here about Weatherby Vanguard rifles [Howa] and as how Weatherby has them all using a pressure point at the forearm.

Some have even made the statement that this is necessary for these rifles to shoot well [as most Vanguards seem to do]

I decided to test my 270 Winchester S1 rifle, which has shown itself to be an exceptional shooter.
[3-shot groups flirt with ½ moa with the 140 NAB, chased by 60.0 grains of Vihtavuori N165 in a Winchester case, using CCI 200 primers]

I bought another Vanguard from a fellow Gunnut, which he had upgraded with a Boyd's AA Claro Walnut Stock, a very attractive piece of lumber, BTW.

He made no claims for the existing rifle that was in that stock, and I did not shoot it in that stock either. I simply took my Vanguard out of the original stock,
and transferred it into the Boyd's. I did not bed it or mess with it in any way. I did note that there was NO contact between the barrel and forearm anywhere,
a piece of paper slips easily under the barrel and slides back right to the area where the barrel is enlarged at the chamber area.

Took a box of my pet load [as above] and headed for the range. Shot a 3-shot group without even checking between shots. When I looked through my spotter,
what did I see? 3 shots inside 5/8", with two making almost one hole. However the group was now 2" left and 6" low. [had been 3" high, dead center in the original stock]

Did the adjustments, fired one shot, tweaked the adjustment once more, and fired another group, a 5 shot, taking my time.
The 5 shots are right where they should be and measure exactly ¾ inch, c to c.

My conclusion, based on this 270 at least, is that the Vanguard shoots just as well free-floated as it did when there was a fair amount of "up" pressure in the barrel.

I have several more Vanguards to experiment with, and plan to do just that later to see if this is an aberration, or if it applies to other Vanguards as well.

If any others have free-floated their Vanguards, perhaps they could post results.

Regards, Dave.
 
I'd be curious to know how P.O.I. would change between the float and pressure point options
on an array of shots fired as the barrel warms up.

This last S2 I recently purchased scared some impression into me.
Mounted up a scope, bore sighted and tossed up a couple three targets.
Thirty yard was just about bullseye and out to 110 yards was slightly high left.
Few clicks and on new target and a nice group to impress the buhjeezus owt oh me.

If one seeks a just above entry level rifle, these are it.
 
My series 1 .270 went into a Boyd's stock and bam, free floated. I never shot it with the plastic stokk (I hated it), but it's a cloverleaf shooter now.

'Looky feels so strongly about them, he got his neighbor to post a translation for him! :)
 
My S1 .270 Win resides in a Boyd's Classic laminate stock, epoxy bed action, free floated 24" barrel..................lead sled, three shots, cloverleaf, just like Bartledan :)
 
I've restocked five Vanguards into Boyd's stocks, bedded and free-floated. All shot before, and all shot after. Two S2s with fancy handles shoot so well that they number among the very few rifles that I own that have nothing done to them at all. Not so much as a trigger adjustment, no bedding, nothing. That's practically heresy at my house.

I'd say that the Vanguards aren't shooters because of the forend pressure, they shoot because Howa knows how to build a rifle.
 
I have previously posted my results from my Laserguard .257 at .518" group all while just fireforming brass. Picked up a used S1 Backcountry in.30-06 and never expected it to be as accurate as my laserguards or synthetics due to the light weight. I proceeded to load 6 different recipes with 2 different bullets. 165 SST and 150 btsp speer. First group was the aforementioned 57.5grains imr 4350 with the SST. Saw first hole and proceeded to finish the group. Seeing one hole I assumed I was missing. Upon inspection the first group went .277". Couldn't have beat the grin from my face with a shovel. Finishing the other five groups the results were .85-1.3" being the worst. Groups were shot at 100 yards. Highest ES also was 30 fps. H4350 load es was 1 fps for the three shots. Also that day shot my S2 .22-250 in Boyds platinum stock for the first time and white box Winchester went .6" with one four shot group going under .5" . Guess the point is I'm pretty sure these would shoot amazing if you duct taped a 2x4 to them.
 
Thanks for posting your findings Eagleye I was wondering about the rationale for Weatherby going with for end pressure. I recently bought a Howa with the Hogue stock which is free floated, that and your results make it apear like Wby is trying to fix a non existent problem.
 
This information is probably not important to the OP, or to most of the readers of this thread, ... but anyway ... just for the record:

If you do on to the Weatherby forum, you will see that any modification of the factory stock (particularly 'free floating' the stock) invalidates the warranty.

Given that Vanguards are almost universally 1 moa shooters right out of the box, anyone who buys a new one should seriously weight the possible advantages vs. the real disadvantages.
 
Lucky for me, I didn't modify the original stock. It is completely unmodified, on the floor behind my furnace.

-Savage- said:
This information is probably not important to the OP, or to most of the readers of this thread, ... but anyway ... just for the record:

If you do on to the Weatherby forum, you will see that any modification of the factory stock (particularly 'free floating' the stock) invalidates the warranty.

Given that Vanguards are almost universally 1 moa shooters right out of the box, anyone who buys a new one should seriously weight the possible advantages vs. the real disadvantages.
Click to expand...
 
Interesting. I will post my results once I have it...I am waiting for the scope to arrived. I free floated the WBY-X with the Bell and Carlson Tactical stock.
 
The deceased David Gentry was a goo friend and we discussed this. His opinion is that a good barrel shoots better free floated If you need a pressure point to get it shooting well It is not a great barrel. So we can say the vanguards have good barrels. This is corroborated by the fact that the majority of custom and semi custom rifles are free floated.
BTW I bed the receiver and free float all my rifles. I got tired of changing points of impact according high humidity elevation temperature change etc. I can take a rifle from Ontario into the mountains Up to the barrens or over to Africa and my point of impact always has been constant.

Neil
 
I have had a number of Vanguards go through my hands, and still own 5.

I have yet to own one that would not shoot moa [or better]

Therefore, I am not concerned with the Weatherby guarantee on the "Range Certified" models, nor on the S2 versions.

I tried my 30-06 Lazerguard free-floated yesterday afternoon. [Put a shim under the action at the front guard screw]
Besides the change of impact, the groups remain very similar to what I had from this rifle before. About ¾moa.

I will try a couple of others as time permits, but expect no deterioration of accuracy with any of them when floated.

Regards, Dave.
 
Eagleye, thanks for presenting an interesting topic, and for providing credible observations. I tend to lean towards the free floating school of thought myself, to the extent that if free floating doesn't negatively affect accuracy, then it will potentially produce better accuracy across a broader range of environmental conditions than a wood stock with a pressure point. But I fall short of suggesting that free floating is universally the answer to accuracy woes in hunting rifles with sporter contour barrels. As a rule I believe that accurate rifles will shoot any reasonable load reasonably well, but as a case in point, a pal of mine has a Weatherby Ultralight, a MK-V not a Vanguard, in .280 Remington, that shoots extremely well with 168 gr Bergers, which I personally consider a miserable game bullet, except for use at extreme range, but he has never been able to get bullets of other styles or weights to shoot, 3 MOA has been the average for his efforts. I've suggested to him that some experimenting with forend pressure might provide the answer to his woes. He's promised to drop the rifle off so |I can play with it, but hasn't yet, so anything I have to offer at this point is conjecture.

I recall a magazine article, from sometime back in the '70s, that examined the idea of adjustable forend pressure, attained though a pair of screws set into the stock at 90 degrees to one another (45 degrees from bottom center) and the adjustments kept the groups centered, and the vibration dampening showed an improvement to accuracy compared to no dampening at all. My opinion differs from that put forward in the article, in that if you can't say that free floating is a universal guarantee of good accuracy, then neither is the use of pressure points a guarantee in all cases. If a rifle has a problem, in that it is incapable of producing acceptable accuracy with all but a specific load, or perhaps not at all, then forend pressure might be something to consider. But if no such problem exists, free floating is a preferable way to have the rifle configured.
 
Boomer said:
Eagleye, thanks for presenting an interesting topic, and for providing credible observations. I tend to lean towards the free floating school of thought myself, to the extent that if free floating doesn't negatively affect accuracy, then it will potentially produce better accuracy across a broader range of environmental conditions than a wood stock with a pressure point. But I fall short of suggesting that free floating is universally the answer to accuracy woes in hunting rifles with sporter contour barrels. As a rule I believe that accurate rifles will shoot any reasonable load reasonably well, but as a case in point, a pal of mine has a Weatherby Ultralight, a MK-V not a Vanguard, in .280 Remington, that shoots extremely well with 168 gr Bergers, which I personally consider a miserable game bullet, except for use at extreme range, but he has never been able to get bullets of other styles or weights to shoot, 3 MOA has been the average for his efforts. I've suggested to him that some experimenting with forend pressure might provide the answer to his woes. He's promised to drop the rifle off so |I can play with it, but hasn't yet, so anything I have to offer at this point is conjecture.

I recall a magazine article, from sometime back in the '70s, that examined the idea of adjustable forend pressure, attained though a pair of screws set into the stock at 90 degrees to one another (45 degrees from bottom center) and the adjustments kept the groups centered, and the vibration dampening showed an improvement to accuracy compared to no dampening at all. My opinion differs from that put forward in the article, in that if you can't say that free floating is a universal guarantee of good accuracy, then neither is the use of pressure points a guarantee in all cases. If a rifle has a problem, in that it is incapable of producing acceptable accuracy with all but a specific load, or perhaps not at all, then forend pressure might be something to consider. But if no such problem exists, free floating is a preferable way to have the rifle configured.
Click to expand...

As usual, Boomer has provided information based on solid experience. Great summary, and very useful to anyone playing with floating [or forend pressure] in sporter barreled rifles.

Thanks, Boomer. Dave.
 
Great information in this thread, thanks guys. Once they start making left handed Vanguard's I will pick one up in a varmint cartridge as they seem to be well regarded around here.
 
Weatherby rifles that use the pressure point are very finiky about the sequence and the torque on the action screws. There is a process that must be followed or it could hurt your accuracy. That said, we have free floated many vanguards and most shoot better the remainder have stayed the same. Have not personally seen any issues from free floating on a vanguard yet.

My mark V ultralight is apparently too light of a barrel to free float, so I'm going to leave it as it shoots awesome as is.
 
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