Fun stuff that wont break your piggy bank, REALLY ?
- Thread starter Gillis2
- Start date
Now you're on the band wagon of misinterpreting my statements as well.
Seems our boy Rabid has his back up and is arguing that somehow I am an advocate of supersonic 22LR, which I'm not. Something isn't adding up on his post a few back.
Again, I will reiterate, the muzzle brake was specifically a recommendation for PRS style shooting, mostly to help spot shots in the air. If you are not familiar with PRS, then you might want to look into that, but there is no paper, just steel plates, generally out to 300 yards. When you miss the plate, you need to know how you missed and if you don't see the bullet fly, then you just guess for your next shot. The less the rifle moves under recoil, the better your ability to see the bullet fly and yes you can see the bullet fly. In this context, the advantage is significant, but the same benefit applies to other types of non paper shooting.
I will not argue about or justify that a reduction in muzzle blast can result in improved accuracy, whether it is achieved through extended barrel length or a properly designed and fitted muzzle brake or any combination of. The theory is sound.
As for quoting Maurice, yes they in fact are his words, and I make no claim to be the author of such. Excellent that you would note. I thought it applied as it so often does.
Seems our boy Rabid has his back up and is arguing that somehow I am an advocate of supersonic 22LR, which I'm not. Something isn't adding up on his post a few back.
Again, I will reiterate, the muzzle brake was specifically a recommendation for PRS style shooting, mostly to help spot shots in the air. If you are not familiar with PRS, then you might want to look into that, but there is no paper, just steel plates, generally out to 300 yards. When you miss the plate, you need to know how you missed and if you don't see the bullet fly, then you just guess for your next shot. The less the rifle moves under recoil, the better your ability to see the bullet fly and yes you can see the bullet fly. In this context, the advantage is significant, but the same benefit applies to other types of non paper shooting.
I will not argue about or justify that a reduction in muzzle blast can result in improved accuracy, whether it is achieved through extended barrel length or a properly designed and fitted muzzle brake or any combination of. The theory is sound.
As for quoting Maurice, yes they in fact are his words, and I make no claim to be the author of such. Excellent that you would note. I thought it applied as it so often does.
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I use a Heathen muzzle brake on my Vudoo. I tried ammo tests with the thread protector, without thread protector and with brake. My particular gun shot best with the brake installed. The heathen brakes can be set at different lengths and even that made a small difference in average group size. The world archery champion was there for the tests and his Vudoo also performed better. I like tiny little holes and in my gun it worked. My Anschutz rifles are not threaded and are deadly accurate with no brakes or threaded barrel. I think there are merits both ways but do what you need to shrink the group size. Each gun is a different animal.
Unless your shooting a freshly painted gong , you will have a hard time spotting impacts at 200-400 yards. With good glass and the right lighting it is possible to see bullet flight with a 22 rimfire. Many can routinely call impacts before the bullet strikes the target. As spotters in prs rimfire matches, we are allowed to give correction to shooters that are juniors or production class until they make their first impact. Many times the farther targets have impact indicators so you see a flashing light when you’ve impacted. I don’t know if I’ve muddied the water more or helped to clarify a little.
Cute. You're suggesting I lack common sense. As a student, I was always very diligent in completing my homework. I have not been successful in locating any material from a reputable source that verifies your claim re muzzle blast and accuracy. This appears to be a case of "I dun thunk it, an' I eess smert, so that's that!". I suppose I should applaud you for your creative thinking, but a theory that cannot stand up to scrutiny should probably be abandoned.
This is what you stated:
How have I taken it out of context? A device that improves accuracy would surely be sought after by the most demanding group of rimfire shooters if it were indeed effective as advertised. I challenge the notion that a muzzle brake can re-direct gasses in time to make a difference in accuracy, and further, that it is even necessary to do so. It is on you to demonstrate that it can.Maple57 said:
The following image shows bullet and muzzle blast at the time of exit from the crown. Given a concentric bore and a symmetrical bullet tail, the forces of the gasses acting on it will be equal all the way around. In other words, no net force in any one direction (other than forward as thrust), therefore no disturbance to the bullet's flight. What was that about common sense?
The blast force dissipates extremely quickly from the muzzle, within a few inches. Can a muzzle brake re-direct enough gas away from the bullet in time to have any effect? If the gasses were to have an effect, would the damage not be done immediately upon exit from the crown, before any gas can be re-directed by the brake?
This is what you said:
This is what I replied:
This is the point of contention:
You have touted this "trans-sonic" bit a number of times, yet offer nothing to support the proposition. I have a body of evidence that suggests the "trans-sonic" zone is of trivial concern, not even worth discussing. I present the true reason why most super-sonic .22LR ammo shoots like crap; because it is manufactured like crap. For the readers, don't worry about this "trans-sonic" business, but until somebody makes super-sonic .22LR to Midas+/Tenex standards, most of the current offerings are not worth your time for target shooting.
Where was I suggesting that you were an advocate of super-sonic ammo? You may remove your foot from your mouth now.
Do you think that to be due to re-direction of exhaust gasses by the brake, or more-so from the brake acting as a crude sort of "tuner"? In a naked barrel, the vibration node is a certain distance behind the muzzle. The stiffer the barrel, the closer to the muzzle the node is. The more flexible the barrel, the further back from the muzzle the node is (and the more extreme the muzzle movement can be).
Adding weight ahead of the muzzle moves the node forward. The right amount of weight, the correct distance beyond the muzzle, places the center of the node right at the crown. Slightly too much, or slightly too little weight will locate the node just behind or just beyond the muzzle, and some performance enhancement over the naked barrel may be had, as the muzzle oscillations are reduced.
As a curiosity, Longstud, what diameter/length/profile is your barrel, and how much does the Heathen brake weigh?
In keeping with the theme of the OP, my last two pics demonstrate the lengths some rimfire enthusiasts will go to, to better understand our sport. I certainly am not investing in an oscillation machine to demonstrate barrel vibrations 
Some folks just have bigger piggy banks
Some folks just have bigger piggy banks 
ScottMisfits
CGN Regular
Most guys are over magnified, no matter what shooting they do. I haven’t gotten to a shoot yet but I went from 24 down to 16 power at my top end. Easier to find the target. I have shot to 300 with a crap 3-9. Spotting hits is not that easy at that distance with big bore, let alone small caliber, even with 24 power. That being said, you could still track the flight by following trails if the conditions were right.
My barrel is exactly 16.25 inches and tapers from1.250 inch to 0.900 inch. So this is an extremely stiff barrel with a fairly small bore. I have theories about things but am not an engineer. You fellows are much more intelligent in these matters. I don't think the muzzle brake does much in the way of changing the sin wave or oscillation but only expensive equiptment would be able to tell. The heathen brake I have weighs 1.6 ounces. I know that barrel tuners work and used a Harrel back in the late eighties. As too your question about the gas being redirected, that's what I assumed was happening but Im no scientist. I just know that the testing we did showed positive results with our two rifles. How Im not really sure.
Cool, thanks for the info. That's one shtiff barrel! A standard Harrells would be too heavy for it. The Heathen is pretty light, but anything that extends beyond the muzzle does move the vibration node. It might be interesting for you to try adding some weight to it. Lead tape maybe? There are some rolls available on Amazon for under $10. 1oz, 2ozs, 3ozs additional weight and see what happens.
Ur as warped as I am. I use to guide fishing and experimented with adhesive lead strips years ago and it does work. This rifle shoots so good I don't feel the need to alter it but yah never know. The never ending quest for perfection but at the mercy of ammo its an uphill battle.
The only shooters not allowed feedback are open division. No magnification restrictions just Monetary. All production shooters are capped on gun and scope cost separately. Gun cant be mechanically modified ie trigger job,bedding etc.The price cap has just been raised and manufacturers are taking notice of this huge market. 24x is not too high despite what some say. All top 100 PRS shooters in both rim and centerfire use high mag optics. Not 16x. At 1200 plus yards you wont see ur bullet splash and you will score ZERO. This is the reason for the smaller 6mm rounds dominating. Less recoil keeps ur eye on the bullet and the target for feedback to make corrections. Throw levers are for quick power changes,start low and go high. Bullet tracking high low is easy if its within the width of the target but if off to one side or the other difficult. Windage is easiest as you predicted. Most skilled production shooters use Vortex Diamondback tactical and can track their bullets. CRPS events are 3-1 open to production because of the difficulty where in ORPS its about evev and sometimes more for production from the many Ive attended. Have a great weekend and hope you can test ur new rifles soon!
Hahahah, I'm perhaps just a little more warped lol I did put an Anschütz barrel on a Cooey and a Lilja on a Remington 597, after all I get the battle with ammo, I feel like most ammo I receive doesn't live up to the potential of my custom 455. Still, a lil' lead tape won't break the bank and if it don't work, can be easily peeled off, no harm, no foul. Don't think of it as "altering" it, it's just an experiment
I did put an Anschütz barrel on a Cooey and a Lilja on a Remington 597, after all I get the battle with ammo, I feel like most ammo I receive doesn't live up to the potential of my custom 455. Still, a lil' lead tape won't break the bank and if it don't work, can be easily peeled off, no harm, no foul. Don't think of it as "altering" it, it's just an experiment Have you ever experimented with vibration dampening products on the barrel? I think the idea is to flatten the oscillation. Making the wave longer producing longer flats in the highs and lows of the curve. Simms makes a big donut looking affair that slides over the barrel. Their products are used a lot in the archery world for vibration reduction and noise! They look ugly but if it makes the gun shoot, who cares!Hahahah, I'm perhaps just a little more warped lol
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
With all this talk about equipment race, I kind of miss the simplicity of the old sporting rifle match. Where you could be competitive with a 190 and some T22...
With all this talk about equipment race, I kind of miss the simplicity of the old sporting rifle match. Where you could be competitive with a 190 and some T22...
Those were good days. Seeing the patches again reminded me of them, and my early days in competitive shooting. Thanks!
Exactly that is the unit. Not really lookin like a donut but you obviously got the idea of what I was referring to. You never cease to amaze me with ur broad knowledge of so many things. I believe the company is Simms with a patent name limbsaver for what it originally came on the market for. Successful enough for major bowmaker, Mathews, to incorporate it into the risers of their bows with interchangeable inserts of different metals to change the harmonics and weight.Are you referring to devices such a Limb Saver barrel deresonator?
