Furlong Dethroned?????

[Glock-a-maniac]

The reporter's story is slightly flawed in that for the bullet to get to the 2700yd mark in just under 3 seconds, the bullet would have had to be doing roughly 5000ft/sec. Simply NOT possible. The beautiful thing about trajectory is that it's predictable.

 

[armorman]

Here's the rifle:

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/1459.aspx

They claim 936m/s which is 3070ft/s. I know my 338LM at 2914ft/s does quite well at a mile with 250 gr scenars so with some extra velocity could it go another 50+% further....maybe. I don't know how accurate it would be though.

 

[Maple Leaf Pilgrim]

The L115 was originally designed as an "anti-materiel" rifle with the capability to disable a standard engine block at 1500m. As it can do an engine block at almost a mile doing a MG at 1.5 miles is no stretch, especially since all you have to do is futz the feed tray even a little bit... maybe dint the reciever where the bolt travels... Maybe ding the barrel collar...

As for the accuraccy of the .338 LM round, I have had impressed upon me by the guys who use it, the utter predictability of the round and how a good shooter can probably take that round far beyond what many consider "effective range".

 

[guntech]

The L115 was originally designed as an "anti-materiel" rifle with the capability to disable a standard engine block at 1500m. As it can do an engine block at almost a mile doing a MG at 1.5 miles is no stretch, especially since all you have to do is futz the feed tray even a little bit... maybe dint the reciever where the bolt travels... Maybe ding the barrel collar...

Really small targets ... considerably smaller than the group size capability at that range...

 

[Maple Leaf Pilgrim]

Really small targets ... considerably smaller than the group size capability at that range...

I have read that Marine Snipers have indicated that while many civvies scoff at a rifle with 2MOA capability, they can make it work... It has been said that if you know your rifle and you know your round, you can go as far as the rounds stability will take you... Hell, is the McMillan Tac 50 able to hit a moving target at 2430m on paper? Probably not, yet we have an example of this. I have even heard (unsubstantiated) rumours that Furlong's record has been broken several times, but the guys who did it are not keen on being "Furlonged".

One fellow initmated that he was making one shot stops with a MK110Mod0 on running targets at 750m. If he can do that with a MilSpec rifle with what he described as 2.5MOA, (the math therefore says a round variance of 18.75" around POA, if I don't miss the mark that is FAR in excess of Minute of Torso, yet these guys do it with disturbing regularity). I'm willing to bet there are shooters out there who can make a very sub MOA rifle such as the AI AWM L115A3 do some impressive things. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if he was planning CoM on the target and put the round on the gun which may have been at the target's CoM.

However, my comment wasn't about the purposeful hit on the gun, but that the energy levels required to disable the gun may be far less than many would think. You, as a Weapons Tech, are certainly quite aware of this.

 

[RayMan]

A 250-gr .338 LM has the energy of something like a .45 Auto at that distance (according to a ballistic calculator). Is that really enough?

 

[X-fan]

So the scope in question has 100MOA of adjustment built in built it?

So the scope base must have at least 40 minutes built in?

Even then he would be near the very bottom of the reticle adding elevation?

 

[iconfig]

Here are the facts. 2700yds
4500feet above sea level, 22% humidity, 70degrees F. 0 wind.
250gr Scenar doing 2750ft/sec
Drop from bore = 4543" (122')
916ft/sec
466ft/lbs
5.7sec flight time

Let's try to figure this out using figures we know. How many MOA is built into the rail these guns are equipped with and let's get some details on the scope that was used and go from there.

S&B 5-25x56
S&B says "56 MOA of 1/4 MOA clicks or 273cm (93 MOA) of 1cm clicks"
rail - 18/28/40 moa cant

would assume they use a 40 moa rail and the 1 mil clicks giving a total of 86.5 moa total upwards adjustment

at 4500 feet, 70 degrees, 22% humidity, 250 grain scenar at 3070 fps, im getting 4.6 seconds flight, 1087.9 fps at target and 656.9 foot pounds

100 yard zero - 104 moa
600 yard zero - 94.8 moa
1000 yard zero - 84.5 moa

 

[ajayofcanada]

At 2700 yards the retained energy of a 338 cal 250 gr bullet is under 400 ftlbs. Is that enough to kill a human?

A 180 gr 40S&W Speer pistol round has 400ft/lbs of energy so it could still do lethal damage, of course depending on where the shot hits, as well as access to emergency health care. Which it is safe to assume that terrorists don't get.

 

[Maple Leaf Pilgrim]

A 250-gr .338 LM has the energy of something like a .45 Auto at that distance (according to a ballistic calculator). Is that really enough?

Well, grab a .45 auto and shoot a rifle with it. If it deforms any thing functional then I would say yes.

 

[Canuck525]

Ok, I read the article. The only thing missing is it should have started with "Once upon a time".
I mean really, the second guy is just going to sit completely still in the complete open for at least 15 seconds without moving after his buddy is shot dead( setup,execution of the shot plus time for the bullet to get there)? What a pile of bulls**t. The shooter was almost previously killed and couldn't wait to get back to the front line? Again another pile of bulls**t in my opinion.
He should have left it at one shot and one kill and it would have been believable.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

Using JBM with mv=3070fps, bullet=Lapua 250 grain Scenar(CD) (i.e. using the Lapua doppler radar drag coefficients), alt=4500'ASL, humidity=22%, temp=70F, elevation zero at 100 yards:

2700 yard drop=136 MOA, velocity=936fps, time of flight=5.389s

So energy is same ballpark though a bit more than a 45 ACP (250 vs 230 grain bullet, 936fps vs. 800s)

"Vitals" area (mission kill) on a machine gun is smaller than on a person

Glock4Ever higher temperatures and higher altitudes reduce air density and therefore drag (and therefore improve range). But *Increased* humidity reduces drag (it's a quite a small effect though)

 

[drache]

Ok, I read the article. The only thing missing is it should have started with "Once upon a time".
I mean really, the second guy is just going it sit completely still in the complete open for at least 15 seconds without moving after his buddy is shot dead( setup,execution of the shot plus time for the bullet to get there)? What a pile of bulls**t. The shooter was almost previously killed and couldn't wait to get back to the front line? Again another pile of bulls**t in my opinion.

Not the first time that has happened and wont be the last.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

It might be BS, but it could be true.

Records (of any sort) don't need to be easy, they merely need to be possible. An average hunter might be exceedingly unlikely to hit a deer at 600y while standing, but since this is not impossible it can't be ruled out simply because it is highly unlikely.

According to the story, he got the correct elevation for the first shot. That's not how I would have bet in the circumstances, but there's nothing saying that that can't happen.

He also got the wind correct for the first shot. This is certainly possible with the correct combination of "good" and "lucky", in fact given that the story said that conditions were ideal, it's not terribly surprising.

So he gets a first-shot hit. While the way to bet would be a near miss for his spotter to correct off of, there's nothing saying that a first round hit is impossible.

When his first shot landed, he would definitely be reloaded and back on the target (for several seconds in fact) waiting for a correction from his spotter. Since it was a hit, which he almost certainly would have seen, he wouldn't even have to wait for his spotter's correction. He likely aimed at target #2 and broke his second shot less than two seconds after his first bullet arrived.

The incoming bullet was subsonic. So Bad Guy #2 would not have heard a sonic boom, there would only be the impact noise. If anything else was going on at the time (noise, action), it's quite conceivable that he would not immediately realize that Bad Guy #1 had been hit.

Since (as it turned out) the shooter was dialed in for shot #1, the chance of shot #2 also being a hit was pretty good. So 6-7s after the first shot arrived, the second bullet would be there, and Bad Guy #2 was hit.

 

[Bandits]

Lots of guys are pushing calibers past thier traditional limits. With the new 338 LM in combination with great weather conditions could allow for some extension in range capabilities.

With that said, the ability to get first shot hits. Maybe if skilled shooters had a good day. Who am I to judge, as it is the shooters proffession.

But with regards to the machine gun????? the rough dimensions of the gun (wiki) suggest a hit on a target that is 0.21 MOA x 1.63 MOA. (This assumes that the gun be the dimensions of a reciever from muzzle to butt).

 

[MagnumPeanut]

It isn't a broken record without confirmation IMO.

 

[Toomanyguns]

I can see it now. 338 Lapua ammo sales increase dramatically as boys with thier toys from all over the world attempt 2700 yard shots.

I'll stick with the 800 - 1000 yard shots for now unless somebody wants to lend me a barn for a target.

 

[Canuck525]

The sudden death of his buddy beside him and subsequent KABOOM a couple seconds later would not allow the second shot to reach him in 6-7 seconds unless he was using THE FORCE. Don't forget he has to wait for confirmation of his hit,reaction time of his spotter to tell him,his reaction time to his spotter, then getting back on target after the recoil,aiming,execute the shot and bullet travel.I will stick to the 10-15 seconds at best for the other guy to sit in the complete open and stay completely still. Even if it was 6-7 seconds as you suggest there is no way the guy is just going to sit there and not be at least moving to find cover.

 

[drache]

The sudden death of his buddy beside him and subsequent KABOOM a couple seconds later would not allow the second shot to reach him in 6-7 seconds unless he was using THE FORCE. Don't forget he has to wait for confirmation of his hit,reaction time of his spotter to tell him,his reaction time to his spotter, then getting back on target after the recoil,aiming,execute the shot and bullet travel.I will stick to the 10-15 seconds at best for the other guy to sit in the complete open and stay completely still. Even if it was 6-7 seconds as you suggest there is no way the guy is just going to sit there and not be at least moving to find cover.

Look into other sniper shots done over there. There have been many instances of guys getting sniped in pairs.

Why would anyone openly walk around with weapons when they know Apache attack helicopters circle overhead ready to fire on them?

 

[Canuck525]

Look into other sniper shots done over there. There have been many instances of guys getting sniped in pairs.

Why would anyone openly walk around with weapons when they know Apache attack helicopters circle overhead ready to fire on them?

I don't doubt there are instances of double kills but the whole story in this instance just doesn't add up(at least not to me).