FX9 Mag Last Roound Bolt Lock back.

How about inserting a small block in the base of the magazine to increase the spring tension/strength? Test this out to see if it would push up the mag follower higher which would engage the bolt catch of fx9.

If it does work then the solution is a stronger mag spring.
 
Here is a picture of both Bolt Catches again. Note how the modified catch has a squared off tip. It is exactly as long as the unmodified catch. The added material, small as it maybe is enpough to make contact with enough of the follower to flip the bolt catch up and hold the bolt back on the last round. After close examination with the upper off the unmodified catch does not engage my Glock mags and most of the after market mags in the slot on the follower where the mag catch is supposed to meet. Because it does not hit thew slot or any of the follower for that matter on mags the mag catch simply slips by the mag follower. When I filed off the tip -see previous post I squared off the tip leaving enough material there to catch part of the follower. It seems to work on all of my mags. We will see how it holds up. As mentioned prviously a permanent solution will be sough via my gunsmith in the future. I'll live with the fact I have enough mags that now work the catch.

I think the long term solution will be to braise or weld material on the tip to create a squatred off tip and add material to the bottom of the bolt catch at the squared off end. This would provide additional metal for the follower to hit. We shall see what my 'smith recommends.

aIJPUyK.jpg
 
aka_ryan said:
How about inserting a small block in the base of the magazine to increase the spring tension/strength? Test this out to see if it would push up the mag follower higher which would engage the bolt catch of fx9.

It if it does work then the solution is a stronger mag spring.
Click to expand...

The problem is the bolt catch is not aligned to the mag follower. I tried to increase the power on the mag follower by inserting a block below the mag spring to increase the spring tension with no result. The follower has to mate with the bolt catch lever. If they don't meet the catch dow not work. MY Korean SHK mags work well. The follower in the SHK mags rises higher in the mag body than all my other mags. This brings the follower into greater contact with the latch. In saying that, the bolt catch lever is hardly catching the follower. It is almost like they got the mag well barrel not exactly aligned. I say that because the arm in the picture cannot be any longer than shown otherwise the olgive of the bullet will hit the catch lever when you insert a loaded magazine. Hell other guns like the Ruger PCC and the CZ Scorpian work well with this issue. It seem to me Freedom should be able to get it right as well.

For me the only two areas of distraction are 1. The Bolt Catch issue and 2. the weight of the buffer which in both the 18.5" and 10" Upper can result in bulged cases and out of breach ignitions. I had two of those before going to a 11oz buffer which has solved the swollen or bulged case issue. For my gun I tried an H3 and 6oz buffer before moving to the 11oz buffer.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
... After close examination with the upper off the unmodified catch does not engage my Glock mags and most of the after market mags in the slot on the follower where the mag catch is supposed to meet. Because it does not hit thew slot or any of the follower for that matter on mags the mag catch simply slips by the mag follower. When I filed off the tip -see previous post I squared off the tip leaving enough material there to catch part of the follower. It seems to work on all of my mags. ...
Click to expand...

That would explain things. You need positive engagement between the shelf on the follower and the lobe on the catch, and if there's no contact between them then obviously there's no engagement.

I imagine that the way that tolerances can stack in manufacturing mean that sometimes it's a problem, and sometimes it's not:

Some rifles have plenty of contact, and positive engagement, and they work great with all mags.

Others have less positive engagement, and they work less consistently with Glock mags.

And then for the unlucky guns like yours, they have no contact and no engagement, and don't work at all with Glock mags.

FWIW, if it doesn't work properly with Glock OEM magazines, I think I'd insist on a warranty solution.
 
Canuck44 said:
...It seem to me Freedom should be able to get it right as well. ...
Click to expand...

I agree, if they're going to make it a feature, it had darn well better work!

Though I have to say that it's relatively difficult to get a last round bolt hold open to work well on a straight blowback rifle like this. That said, the FX-9 LRBHO design doesn't look very confidence inspiring.

It also looks like there is peening on the bolt contact surface on the catch in your photo. Is that right? Poor engagement (or negative engagement) there with the corresponding surface on the bolt would also explain the extremely touchy bolt release issue that some people have.
 
Yes on the peening. WOLVERINE sent me a replacement which is the 2nd Catch in the photo. The peening occured from the bolt almost, but to quite getting caught. I just used the 1st catch because it was off the gun
I filed off the raised metal from the peening. If my gunsmith thinks he can weld metal on the part he can use the newer catch.

I suspect Freedom would have to redo the dimensions for the receiver to fully correct this problem although if they just squared off the nose and added metal under the tip of the lever it might allow more of the latch to contact the follower. There really is not much if any room to extend the nose of the lever as I found out.
If other makers can design a system that works so can Freedom. Whether they have the will, desire or financial capabilty is another question altogether.
 
alpining said:
I agree, if they're going to make it a feature, it had darn well better work!

Though I have to say that it's relatively difficult to get a last round bolt hold open to work well on a straight blowback rifle like this. That said, the FX-9 LRBHO design doesn't look very confidence inspiring.

It also looks like there is peening on the bolt contact surface on the catch in your photo. Is that right? Poor engagement (or negative engagement) there with the corresponding surface on the bolt would also explain the extremely touchy bolt release issue that some people have.
Click to expand...

I called freedom ordnance and they said that peening on the catch is normal.... f:P:
 
Covefrog said:
I called freedom ordnance and they said that peening on the catch is normal.... f:P:
Click to expand...

I wonder is it also "normal" that their last round bolt hold open feature doesn't work for the majority of people and in particular with genuine Glock magazines?
 
Covefrog said:
I called freedom ordnance and they said that peening on the catch is normal.... f:P:
Click to expand...
Probably is if the bolt cat h is just catching then releasing the bolt as the bolt skips over the catch. Thar is what mine was doing
You don't see the peening on the new catch after 200 rds. Why? Well because I only used mags that worked properly after adding material to the mag followers or mags from Korea that held the bolt back. Freedom told me this problem only occurred in Canada because of our pinned mags. I then told them I was using Glock 10 rd mags that were not pinned. Their response...oh.
Listen I love my FX9 and have it working now. I don't see myself selling it any time soon.
Take Care
Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
...I suspect Freedom would have to redo the dimensions for the receiver to fully correct this problem although if they just squared off the nose and added metal under the tip of the lever it might allow more of the latch to contact the follower. There really is not much if any room to extend the nose of the lever as I found out....
Click to expand...

Not so sure about just changing the specs on the catch: You modified your catch to work with your rifle, which is good. But if you did the same modification to someone else's catch it might stop working in theirs. Know what I mean?

I think you're probably on the right track about dimensions of the receiver as well as dimensions of the catch, but more importantly tolerances might have to be tightened up across the board. That's what it would take to reduce the "tolerance stacking" that's probably causing the problem. Everything needs to work together for the LRBHO to work reliably: Bolt position in the receiver, bolt catch position, bolt catch dimensions, magazine well position, magazine catch position, and magazine catch dimensions. Give or take a few thousandths of an inch on each of these, and that's a lot of potential error...
 
Canuck44 said:
The problem is the bolt catch is not aligned to the mag follower. I tried to increase the power on the mag follower by inserting a block below the mag spring to increase the spring tension with no result. The follower has to mate with the bolt catch lever. If they don't meet the catch dow not work. MY Korean SHK mags work well. The follower in the SHK mags rises higher in the mag body than all my other mags. This brings the follower into greater contact with the latch. In saying that, the bolt catch lever is hardly catching the follower. It is almost like they got the mag well barrel not exactly aligned. I say that because the arm in the picture cannot be any longer than shown otherwise the olgive of the bullet will hit the catch lever when you insert a loaded magazine. Hell other guns like the Ruger PCC and the CZ Scorpian work well with this issue. It seem to me Freedom should be able to get it right as well.

For me the only two areas of distraction are 1. The Bolt Catch issue and 2. the weight of the buffer which in both the 18.5" and 10" Upper can result in bulged cases and out of breach ignitions. I had two of those before going to a 11oz buffer which has solved the swollen or bulged case issue. For my gun I tried an H3 and 6oz buffer before moving to the 11oz buffer.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that you have go through all this Bob, sounds like a PIA. It seems there is no doubt that the fx9 bolt catch is a subpar design. But if you want, you can try a few more things.

1) Take out the follower from the Korean SHK mags that's working and swap into mags that didn't work, observe result.

2) Swap the none working follower to the working SHK mag, observe result.

If 1) works and 2) doesn't, then it has more to do with the follower tolerance plus may be in combination of magazine body tolerance.

If 1) doesn't work and 2) works, then it's might still be a matter of spring strength.

If 1) works and 2) works, viola, stop here, and keep the mag follower where they are. Repeat test with other mags until you find the the follower that works best in that mag.

If neither 1) nor 2) works, then it's a great possibility that the combination of magazine body tolerance with respect to the mag follower tolerance resulting in minor variance of follower position.


Also, after considering your response to my previous suggestion, I came up with another idea might be worth a shot. You may want to try to raise the mag follower a bit instead of inserting a block to the base of the magazine. Like thickening the base of the mag follower from underneath, so that it will be raised to a higher position than before.
 
aka_ryan said:
Sorry to hear that you have go through all this Bob, sounds like a PIA. It seems there is no doubt that the fx9 bolt catch is a subpar design. But if you want, you can try a few more things.

1) Take out the follower from the Korean SHK mags that's working and swap into mags that didn't work, observe result.

The problem is all "Glock" mag bodies are not alike. They differ at the top of the mag body. I tried doing what you suggest and found the followers differed ever so slightly in their width. To large and they stop before seating at the top. To narrow and they remain loose and the mag catch simply pushed the follower over and fails to drive the follower up. The SHK mags work because their followers rise significantly higher in the mag body than all the other mags I have. See comments " filling in the notch" below.

2) Swap the none working follower to the working SHK mag, observe result.

If 1) works and 2) doesn't, then it has more to do with the follower tolerance plus may be in combination of magazine body tolerance.

If 1) doesn't work and 2) works, then it's might still be a matter of spring strength.

Adding spring strength just makes the follower miss the catch faster. I tried that with all my mags and none solved the issue. When the mag catch doesn't hold the bolt back it is caused by the catch not engaging the follower.

If 1) works and 2) works, viola, stop here, and keep the mag follower where they are. Repeat test with other mags until you find the the follower that works best in that mag.

If neither 1) nor 2) works, then it's a great possibility that the combination of magazine body tolerance with respect to the mag follower tolerance resulting in minor variance of follower position.


Also, after considering your response to my previous suggestion, I came up with another idea might be worth a shot. You may want to try to raise the mag follower a bit instead of inserting a block to the base of the magazine. Like thickening the base of the mag follower from underneath, so that it will be raised to a higher position than before.

It is easier to just thin the follower. The followers are designed to mate with the top of the mag body. If you thin the follower you then would have to increase the length of the arm of the mag catch which is, as I found out not possible and if you make it longer the bullet in the cartridge hits the arm and is not able to rise high enough to be engaged by the bolt. What you get is a jammed bolt.
Click to expand...

With the FX 9 when the bolt fails to be held back by the LRBHO the cause is the LRBHO arm has not engaged the mag follower. Near catchs result in peening on the arm that engages the bolt. The bolt skips over the LRBHO due to the fact the arm that is supposed to engage the follower. The forces involved push the follower past the arm. Even when the LRBHO works it is only catching a very thin part of the follower. I assume the pointy end of the forward arm is designed to hit the notch in the follower. For the most part it fails in virtually every mag I own. When it does catch consistently in the case of the SHK Korean 10/32 mags it is only catching a very thin part of the follower.

What I have learned in all of this is:

1. Adding a stronger mag spring will not solve the issue. When a mag fails it is always caused by the LRBHO not engaging the follower. The distance is just to great for the arm of the LRBHO to mate with the follower.

2. If you fill in the notch of the follower with epoxy such as Steel Weld and widen the added material just a mere fraction of an inch you will find the arm of the LRBHO will engage the follower in most instances.

3. If you add epoxy to the end of the arm that engages the follower and file it back so all you are doing is squaring off the tip I found the small addition of material ensures engagement on all the mags I have- 100%. What I don't know yet is how long it will hold up. I do intend to have my gunsmith weld material on the end of the latch and form the same squared off end that I have now created with epoxy - see photo above.

4. It doesn't take much pressure to raise the LRBHO arm up to engage the bolt. Just by adding the smallest amount of epoxy is enough to make the catch work.

5. The arm that engages the follower is designed to hit the notch in the Glock mag follower. In my gun the distance to reach the notch fully is just to far and you cannot increase the LRBHO arm to fully reach the mag notch - see bullet interference comment above. By squaring off the arm tip and adding the smallest amount of length read virtually none I found it was sufficient to engage my modified mags ie the fill ing in of the notch.

6. I have not heard of anyone who has a gun that works with al mags. I am sure they exist. The smallest increase in length of the latch arm that engages to mag follower is all that is required. I suspect their is enough variance in tolerances in how the LRBHO are made to ensure that some work while most don't.

7, I am talking about the Gen2 FX9. If you own a Gen1 you may or may not be facing the issues some of are experiencing. If you only use one mag and it works you have no issues. If you don't care if the bolt fails to hold after the last round, you really have no reason to worry about the loss. BUT if you like playing PCC games such as 3 Gun, 2 Gun, IPSC PCC or IDPA PCC then you really have to work to get a solution for your gun.

I hope my experiences helps those affected by this malady. Most, if not all of the above will be true for your gun IF it is not holding the bolt back on the last round. If you can find them SHL marked Korean 10/32 mags do work for the reason stated above. My recommendation has a caveat and that I am assuming all SHK 10/32 mags are all the same.

Lastly this is NOT a mag issue although the solve does or may involve modifying the mag follower. All the Glock mags be they OEM or After Market work in Glock pistols. It is a gun issue and the fault lies with the design of the receiver as it relates to the magwell, and LRBHO. All my "Glock" mags work and worked in my Ruger PCC and before that my Sub2K. Most, but not all do not work in the FX9 unless:
a) You get lucky or

b) You do some mods to the LRBHO or the followers or both. Wolverine, did modify one gun I know of that now works for all mags. You might want to send your gun back to them IF you want to have the gun work with all your mags.

Just Saying

Take Care
Bob
 
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Just as a final comment. The epoxy did not hold on the mag catch or the follower. What has proven to work is the use of Crazy Glue. I glued a small piece of polymer material to the mag follower in the notch that is intended to catch the slide stop when the mags are used in a pistol. I filled in the notch with a piece cut from one of the cheap red cleaning rods you get with a new pistol. After allowing time let the glue set I dressed down the excess material so the follower could be returned to the mag body. I now have done that with all my mags that were not working and they now all hold the bolt back. The glue has held for over 200 rounds. I don't expect to have any more issues. My carbine now runs perfectly and is surprisingly accurate with Primary Arms sight sitting opn the rails. The Primary Arms sight is a prism design which certainly eliminates issues I have with my stigmatism.

Take Care

Bob
 
Here are two mags with different views. Note where I added the red piece of material. By raising the contact pint the mag catch arm just reaches the red piece enough to raise the arm to catch the bolt. I have two Korean 10/32 mags that rise higher in their mag bodies and catch the bolt catch withour the need for additional material. It is a good thing this carbine meets my needs as the bolt catch feature is really a need I have if I want to use this carbine in IDPA PCC. Racking the bolt back manually on every reload takes to much time and in IDPA performance is measured in time.

In the 3nd picture the top mag is on a bit of an angle. It gives you the impression the red piece extends beyond the mag body. It doesn't. The red piece lays flush to all sides of the mag. I had to file the pieces flush to the mag bodies in all instances to allow the mag follower to rise and fall as it is designed to do within the mag body.


ax7W1Gf.jpg


b1pfrBU.jpg


HB60oLS.jpg


In the third picture the little hair like thing on the top of the red addition is just a file pull and will be cut off now I see it in the picture. It is a bit of a crude fix but it does the job. I used a coping saw to cut the small pieces off of the cleaning rod. .

Take Care

Bob
 
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Hmmm, some great info here.

I need to play around some more but there is a good selection of fixes for potential issues.

Feels like the mag follower mod would be a good project for someone that is skilled with a 3D scanner / 3D printer (ie scan the original and replicate with the incorporated additional tip).

Curious to hear anyones thoughts that has more knowledge of 3D printing than me.

If this was possible in theory you could run any mags with modified 3D printed followers that were tailored with this mod.
 
Sniffer said:
Hmmm, some great info here.

I need to play around some more but there is a good selection of fixes for potential issues.

Feels like the mag follower mod would be a good project for someone that is skilled with a 3D scanner / 3D printer (ie scan the original and replicate with the incorporated additional tip).

Curious to hear anyones thoughts that has more knowledge of 3D printing than me.

If this was possible in theory you could run any mags with modified 3D printed followers that were tailored with this mod.
Click to expand...

Good idea ans I have a friend with a 3D printer. Ill ask him tonite.

Take Care

Bob
 
firsrt nothing on the hold back issue.

I finally thru in the towel after having more issues with bulged cases. After two out of battery experiences I got hold of Wolvwrine. Heather there is excellent by the way. The gunsmith want to see the gun. Since I was getting bulged cases using factory ammo AND got them with both the 18.5" AND the 10" barrel. Om top of that the extractor broke on the 10" upper - the spring broke I think. so the gun and the 2nd upper are on their way to Wolverine for warranty work. I am sure their 'smith should be able to determine what is wrong. The gun went back on my dime and I would hope it comes back on theirs.

All in all i have found the gun to be scary accurate and reliable. The extractor spring is no big deal. The bulged cases and the failure to lock back using most of my Glock and after market mags is not particularly impressive. Tjhe gun has all the makings of being an excellent little competitor but right now mine is not. It will get fixed I am sure. I just don't like Beta testing $1,400 firearms.

The basic Ruger PCC or S&W FPC are both better options IMHO. So is the now outlawed CX4 Storm . That said if my Carbine issues can be fixed it is a nice little carbine and ###y as hell.

Take Care

Bob
 
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