Getting started with aperture sights for rimfire:

[JQIAN]

I saw OP has a set of front sight aperture inserts. My understanding is M18 comes with aperture of 4.3mm, is it too big so that the front inserts is needed?
Would it be a viable solution with a vario like this one as well: https://www.nordicmarksman.com/Iris-Front-Sight-Vario-M22.html

Besides, questions to OP, when you choose front inserts, why is it yellow? why not just transparent or blue? What's the difference do you think the tinted color could make?

 

[Chilly807]

The black aiming mark is generally 8 moa on .22 targets meant for aperture sights, regardless of the distance. So, 8 inches for 100 yds, 4 inches at 50 yds, 2 inches at 25, and so on.

Most shooters will prefer a front aperture around the mid 3 mm range. 3.6 is quite popular for prone, most will want a 4 mm or bigger to shoot standing (3p).

A common mistake is to use too small a front aperture. The larger aperture is easier to shoot with, and your eye will automatically center the black in the aperture with a little practice. If you doubt this, shoot and keep track of your scores for a while using both small and larger apertures on the front. You'll see what I mean.

An adjustable iris at each end is a real plus, and not overly expensive.

As suggested, call Nordic and talk with Brad or any of the staff. Great folks and they understand this game.

 

[JQIAN]

yep, talked to Nordic and ordered m22 front sight along with the rear sight.
Also ordered the iris aperture for rear to adjust from 0.8 to 2.2 (mostly people just use 1.1mm anyway as I understand).
The front sight is 22mm and aperture is 5.0mm I believe. I also ordered a vario for front sight I believe to be 2.2 to 4.3mm
should receive it by this weekend and will report back how it goes.

Thanks for all the info and help.

The black aiming mark is generally 8 moa on .22 targets meant for aperture sights, regardless of the distance. So, 8 inches for 100 yds, 4 inches at 50 yds, 2 inches at 25, and so on.

Most shooters will prefer a front aperture around the mid 3 mm range. 3.6 is quite popular for prone, most will want a 4 mm or bigger to shoot standing (3p).

A common mistake is to use too small a front aperture. The larger aperture is easier to shoot with, and your eye will automatically center the black in the aperture with a little practice. If you doubt this, shoot and keep track of your scores for a while using both small and larger apertures on the front. You'll see what I mean.

An adjustable iris at each end is a real plus, and not overly expensive.

As suggested, call Nordic and talk with Brad or any of the staff. Great folks and they understand this game.

 

[Biologist]

Thank you everyone for the helpful comments, advice and well wishes!
Thank you to the folks who sent me instructional shooting material, target dimension info and PDF targets for print!

Regarding my rifle's (Anschutz 1907) butt plate assembly: I want to keep it as-is because I plan to learn traditional positional shooting. For the bench shooting, I have on order from Nordic Marksman an Anschutz receiver rail extension where I can move the rear site backwards, and a corresponding spacer rail for the front globe to raise it up to the same elevation. For positional shooting I can simply slide off the sites from the extension rails and mount them normally. Should take only 2 seconds with the allen key.

Thank you for that memory trick on the turret dials. I think the windage is the same as my scopes so I have that in muscle memory. The elevation turret German arrow direction messes with my mind. I will be using that trick you taught me using the screw thread direction analogy: tightening screw inwards or "down" for down; Loosening screw outwards or "up" for up.

I am going to try clicking for wind instead of holding. I need more range time to get that skill honed.

Re question on choice of M18 instead of M22: Since I wear Rx glasses, and our range requires eye protection, it is impossible for me to get my eye up against the rear aperture disc for a full field of view. This is also a common problem with binoculars, spotting scopes and cameras too - cursed for life in this regard of reduced field of view. In my study I saw the YT videos from Heinz Reinkemeier, and he showed the importance of centering the outer ring of the globe with the rear sight picture in order to avoid parallax errors.

With my glasses narrowing my field of view, I was concerned that the outer globe ring might be obscured with the M22, or I would have less space around it to work on centering, potentially causing parallax error. So I went with the M18 to have that smaller globe to provide more space to work with for field of view and parallax avoidance. Not sure of this will be worth while, but its what I have for now.

There was a question about the front sight yellow colour inserts: For my eyes in all the outdoor natural light shooting sports, I definitely see better contrast with a yellow filter. So I went with the yellow.

I decided to splurge more and bought a standard front iris insert. It just arrived from Nordic Marksman. I have not had time to try it out but its going to be fun. I hear your advice for using the larger aperture (like a 4.0 for 50m). The adjustments learning curve will be fun - more reason to get to the range and shoot more.

Also in that NM order was a Kurt Thune sling. Can't wait to try it out. I do not have a shooting jacket and shoulder hook. The inside of the sling's arm loop is very grippy rubber so I am hoping it will suffice for now. A shooting jacket is not a possibility for now because I cannot fit off the rack so it has to be custom made.

One more splurge: I just sent in my NM order for a rear sight iris with 5 colour filter options. I expect to be using the yellow or clear filters depending on the light. I am hoping that the rear sight iris adjustment might compensate somewhat for the longer distance of my Rx glasses from the aperture. But if it doesn't, the adjustment will be fun to work with anyway.

Nordic Marksman is a great shop!

 

[JQIAN]

the more I talked to Brad the more money I spent there
I am supposed to get the aperture sights with rear and front iris tomorrow. I will see how it works out.
if M22 is too big I can order a separate m18 front sight only. Just have to spent more
I figured 6834 set with M22 has same price as the one with M18, but M18 front is $10 cheaper than M22. So ordering M22 set is more economical. That's one way I justified it.

Thank you everyone for the helpful comments, advice and well wishes!

Nordic Marksman is a great shop!

 

[JQIAN]

I finally got time today to the range to get this thing set up.
The setup is as following: Anschutz 1761 MPR. The sight is 6834 set M22. So the front sight size is 22mm with a default insert of 5mm.
I added a vanilla rear iris aperture which has 0.8 to 2.2 range (but mostly I just use 1.0 to 1.2), also added a front iris vario with range of 2.3 to 4.3 (usually I use 3.5 to 4.0 depending on the distance and target size)
I don't think I need coloured inserts or polarization.


The result is quite promising. I got it on paper with 2 shots at 80 meters.
Then I moved to 50 meters. The below targets are standard, I scaled it according to the ISSF rules. The black ring is about 4.2".
The overall group size is about 0.8 to 1.2 inch. Not too bad considering it's my first time.




Now I am thinking two things. Do I need a rear sight extension? I want to move the rear iris farther away from the front and more importantly closer to my eye.
Will I need an eagle eye set, like those 0.3 or 0.5 diopters? It's like a cheating, basically making the target and front aperture appear closer and larger. Will the front iris vario allow an eagle eye adapter to fit in?

 

[grauhanen]

I finally got time today to the range to get this thing set up.
The setup is as following: Anschutz 1761 MPR. The sight is 6834 set M22. So the front sight size is 22mm with a default insert of 5mm.
I added a vanilla rear iris aperture which has 0.8 to 2.2 range (but mostly I just use 1.0 to 1.2), also added a front iris vario with range of 2.3 to 4.3 (usually I use 3.5 to 4.0 depending on the distance and target size)
I don't think I need coloured inserts or polarization.



Now I am thinking two things. Do I need a rear sight extension? I want to move the rear iris farther away from the front and more importantly closer to my eye.
Will I need an eagle eye set, like those 0.3 or 0.5 diopters? It's like a cheating, basically making the target and front aperture appear closer and larger. Will the front iris vario allow an eagle eye adapter to fit in?

The 1761 rifles don't have long barrels. Have you got a barrel extension to lengthen the sight radius? Perhaps it's also known as a bloop tube.

 

[JQIAN]

The 1761 rifles don't have long barrels. Have you got a barrel extension to lengthen the sight radius? Perhaps it's also known as a bloop tube.

The one I have is 21.4" I believe. I know bloop tube, the longer the sight radius the more accurate it is supposed to be. But I have the current setting is good enough for me. I probably won't shoot anything beyond 100 yards. The rear sight now is sitting on the very rear end of receiver, I feel if I add another 5cm extension tube to it, not only does it make my neck more comfortable but also lengthens the sight radius which is good enough?

One question though, if I get a so-called eagle eye, is it supposed to be between the target and front aperture, which makes the target bigger but keeps the aperture same; or to be between the front aperture and rear sight, which makes both target and aperture bigger?

 

[Biologist]

Nice shooting JQIAN!

RE Rear sight extension: I also need one for bench shooting so that my neck is not craned forward. I ordered from Nordic Marksman the "ANSCHUTZ SIGHT LINE EXTENSION BENCHREST 1900" for my 1907.

https://www.nordicmarksman.com/Sight-Line-Extension-Benchrest.html


Once I receive it, I will post a photo of its set-up.

RE Eagle Eyes: I did some research because I anticipate with my RX glasses and aging eyes, that I will need Eagle Eye inserts eventually. So far I think I am OK without because I seem to get a good sight picture and depth-of-field focus.

From my reading the EE's can be threaded onto the frontside or rear side of the front sight. I found this curious because I would have thought that it needs to be facing me as the last lens the light passes through in the front sight. But apparently it can be the first lens the light passes through, and the reviews I read said it does not matter. ?

 

[JQIAN]

Nice shooting JQIAN!

RE Rear sight extension: I also need one for bench shooting so that my neck is not craned forward. I ordered from Nordic Marksman the "ANSCHUTZ SIGHT LINE EXTENSION BENCHREST 1900" for my 1907.

https://www.nordicmarksman.com/Sight-Line-Extension-Benchrest.html

Once I receive it, I will post a photo of its set-up.

RE Eagle Eyes: I did some research because I anticipate with my RX glasses and aging eyes, that I will need Eagle Eye inserts eventually. So far I think I am OK without because I seem to get a good sight picture and depth-of-field focus.

From my reading the EE's can be threaded onto the frontside or rear side of the front sight. I found this curious because I would have thought that it needs to be facing me as the last lens the light passes through in the front sight. But apparently it can be the first lens the light passes through, and the reviews I read said it does not matter. ?

As for sight extension, I was looking a simple/cheap screw on thing like this: https://www.nordicmarksman.com/Rear-Iris-Extension.html
The one you listed seems interesting but the rail is 20cm long, and a raising block. Why do you need a such a long extension? Your cheek riser doesn't seem that far away.

As for eagle eye, I also heard contradicting ideas. Some said it must be between front aperture and shooter so that both target and front aperture will be equally enlarged.
The others said it doesn't matter and it could be at the frontside of foresight so that only target is enlarged. They reasoned that the dioptre is so insignificant (mostly is just +0.3 or +0.5 meaning the target is enlarged to 1.075 or 1.125 times it would be without, that is 7.5% or 12.5% larger), that the front aperture will still be able to accommodate this slight enlargement.
I have a front iris vario which varies from 3.2 to 4.3 with 0.1 step. I usually set it at 3.6. With 12.5% larger it's still well within 4.3.
But I am not so sure, so I am holding the purchase of both extension and EE until I can find a conclusion by when ordering them together to save shipping cost.

When you get the extension and install it, please upload a picture, I want to see how it goes.

 

[Biologist]

As for sight extension, I was looking a simple/cheap screw on thing like this: https://www.nordicmarksman.com/Rear-Iris-Extension.html
The one you listed seems interesting but the rail is 20cm long, and a raising block. Why do you need a such a long extension? Your cheek riser doesn't seem that far away.

I also saw that screw-in extender tube on NM's website, and I think it would work fine. I have been watching many videos on competition shooters, and reading and seeing photos of all the gizmo's (like stack-able rails) that various shooters are using. I though that I would get one of these rails as "level 1" for stacking, should I need to add more later. My Anschutz 1907's 54 action has a long rear rail behind the ejection port. A good portion of the extension rail I ordered will fit over that receiver rail, plus the backwards extent of the open bolt, which I figure is at least 10 cm of space I want to be behind when the BR rail is fully forward. So the adjustability range is huge, likely way far more than I need. If it is too long, plan B will involve a trim with hack saw and fine files, which I would NOT be looking forward to.

 

[grauhanen]

The one I have is 21.4" I believe. I know bloop tube, the longer the sight radius the more accurate it is supposed to be. But I have the current setting is good enough for me. I probably won't shoot anything beyond 100 yards. The rear sight now is sitting on the very rear end of receiver, I feel if I add another 5cm extension tube to it, not only does it make my neck more comfortable but also lengthens the sight radius which is good enough?

Sight radius matters, regardless of the distance shot. It's one of the reasons for very long barrels on 3P rifles. A shorter sight radius reduces accuracy potential. That's why pistols can't be shot as accurately as rifles and why short barreled rifles are not used in position shooting. But if you're shooting just to use aperture sights then it won't matter.

A rear extension will serve to facilitate head position and aiming. A front extension will serve to significantly increase the sight radius significantly because the front globe goes on the extension. Many tubes are 20 cm and more in length, which is like adding length to a barrel.

One question though, if I get a so-called eagle eye, is it supposed to be between the target and front aperture, which makes the target bigger but keeps the aperture same; or to be between the front aperture and rear sight, which makes both target and aperture bigger?

I must misunderstand the question. I don't think you mean the eagle eye would be between the target and front aperture or globe. There should be nothing there but a safe path for the bullet. The front aperture will be on the end of the barrel or barrel with extension tube.

 

[JQIAN]

I must misunderstand the question. I don't think you mean the eagle eye would be between the target and front aperture or globe. There should be nothing there but a safe path for the bullet. The front aperture will be on the end of the barrel or barrel with extension tube.

Maybe I didn't state the question properly.
When you shoot, your aiming eye look through the rear sight aperture, then the front sight aperture and target is in the middle of the front sight aperture, in that order:
eye-->rear aperture-->front aperture-->target

Should the eagle eye (dioptre) sit at the rear of the front aperture, meaning the order would be:
A: eye-->rear aperture-->eagle eye-->front aperture-->target
or at the front of the front aperture, meaning the order would be:
B: eye-->rear aperture-->front aperture-->eagle eye-->target

No matter where the eagle sits it has nothing to do with the safe path of the bullet. It's about whether both front aperture and target will be enlarged, or only target will be enlarged.
Both I and Biologist found some contradicting ideas on the internet between the option A and B

 

[JQIAN]

I also saw that screw-in extender tube on NM's website, and I think it would work fine. I have been watching many videos on competition shooters, and reading and seeing photos of all the gizmo's (like stack-able rails) that various shooters are using. I though that I would get one of these rails as "level 1" for stacking, should I need to add more later. My Anschutz 1907's 54 action has a long rear rail behind the ejection port. A good portion of the extension rail I ordered will fit over that receiver rail, plus the backwards extent of the open bolt, which I figure is at least 10 cm of space I want to be behind when the BR rail is fully forward. So the adjustability range is huge, likely way far more than I need. If it is too long, plan B will involve a trim with hack saw and fine files, which I would NOT be looking forward to.

My 1761 action has short rear rail behind the ejection port, meaning if I get that extension I would have to mount the screws onto the front part of the ejection port. That covers ejection port, which I want to avoid.
I was looking at something with a step down because I don't need the riser, like this one: https://www.nordicmarksman.com/Benchrest-Rear-Sight-Rail.html
but those are just out of stock.
And I don't know the dimension of those extensions, and it's hard to speculate just by looking at the pictures. I think I will just go safe with the cheap screw-in version.

 

[dead meat]

I don't have an Anschutz but a few years back picked up a Weihrauch falling block with factory peep sights. Haven't done much with them yet but intend to in the future. This rifle would not look or function well with a scope, so the peep sight will stay on. Takes a bit of getting used to this style of sights after a life time of scopes.

 

[JQIAN]

I also saw that screw-in extender tube on NM's website, and I think it would work fine. I have been watching many videos on competition shooters, and reading and seeing photos of all the gizmo's (like stack-able rails) that various shooters are using. I though that I would get one of these rails as "level 1" for stacking, should I need to add more later. My Anschutz 1907's 54 action has a long rear rail behind the ejection port. A good portion of the extension rail I ordered will fit over that receiver rail, plus the backwards extent of the open bolt, which I figure is at least 10 cm of space I want to be behind when the BR rail is fully forward. So the adjustability range is huge, likely way far more than I need. If it is too long, plan B will involve a trim with hack saw and fine files, which I would NOT be looking forward to.

Brad sent me these pictures. The rail is exactly 200mm long. Your buttstock looks quite short. You may have to cut the rail a bit if you don't want it to cover the ejection port.
My MPR stock has a relatively long buttstock so I may or may not get away with it.
Another concern I have is the rail raises the sight about 8mm. MPR stock is not flexible, I may have to have a cheek riser to get comfortable.

 

[Biologist]

Thanks JQIAN for that photo of the rail extender I am buying. Wow that looks longer than I thought it would be! My 1907's 54 action has a longer receiver rail than the MPR's receiver, so I can take up some of that un-needed length on the receiver. I mentioned hack saw before, but now I am thinking Dremel for a clean cut, and then micro file to take the burr off the dovetail edge so I can slide on the sight. Or maybe it can slide on from the front and its no big deal.

My 1907 has the adjustable cheek riser, so I think that height will not be a problem. I also have lots of closed cell foam pieces at home, and stick-on Velcro that I get from Can Tire, that I make cheek riser pads from for other rifles, so I know I can accommodate that height and make it work.

I did order, and then send back to Nordic Marksman (its en-route right now), the "MEC-Centra Tele" version of that Anschutz extender rail that steps down. On the NM webpage its listed under the Gear "Benchrest" tab, link here: https://www.nordicmarksman.com/MEC-Tele.html



The NM page lists it as "out of stock", because I ordered the last one they had. (NM's real-time inventory system works well). However if you wanted this, I suggest you call NM and mention that you heard one of these is being returned and is in the mail now, and when it arrives at NM please snag it for you.

 

[JQIAN]

I did order, and then send back to Nordic Marksman (its en-route right now), the "MEC-Centra Tele" version of that Anschutz extender rail that steps down. On the NM webpage its listed under the Gear "Benchrest" tab, link here: https://www.nordicmarksman.com/MEC-Tele.html

The NM page lists it as "out of stock", because I ordered the last one they had. (NM's real-time inventory system works well). However if you wanted this, I suggest you call NM and mention that you heard one of these is being returned and is in the mail now, and when it arrives at NM please snag it for you.

Yeah I saw this step-down version of the extension the other day, and gave it very a hard thought. Two issues I have with it, one is it might block the bolt being pulled back when ejecting the case unless I mount to the edge of the receiver to leave enough room for the bolt but then again it defeats the purpose of not being too long, the other is the chrome or stainless steel is not aesthetically attractive to me. This thing just doesn't look right on a wood stock to my taste.

I was like, what the heck the whole problem can be solved with that simple screw-in extension for 20 bucks, why do I have to go fancy with a 120 buck rail? I pretty much dissuaded myself from buying that rail.
I am waiting for the answer for the eagle eye set and put an order together. I may also get a simple snag-on type of eyeshield since I found my aiming eye is too strained while squinting the non-aiming eye.

 

[Biologist]

Today, on the 50m rimfire range, I tested my new front sight Iris (MEC-CENTRA Standard Iris M18, 2.3 - 4.3). My rear sight rail extension and iris are en-route from Nordic Marksman, so today I tested just one new variable: the front sight iris aperture size.

Bench set-up as per post #1. (Ya I know, fully supported rifle on rest and bags, ho-hum, minimal skill. My Anschutz 1907 was made for positional shooting, gosh darn it! I will be evolving to classic positional shooting one day! )

Weather conditions were near perfect: Wind varied from nil, to occaisional light breezes that I waited out based on the flags. I did get caught in one extended breeze that opened the group (more on that later). Sky was overcast and light was diffuse and dull, and no mirage.

Today's Ammo: SK Rifle Match ("Red"). My rifle likes the lot I have, but as with all SK ammo, you can expect variability out to about 1 MOA (out to about 0.5" at 50m), and a crazy random flier frequency at about 1 or 2 rounds per box of 50 on average. Today I think I had at least one of those fliers.

Target photos below are cropped, and stuck into pairs to reduce file size - in real life they have much more white space around them for the aperture ring.

Targets are the standard ISSF 50m. I shot 10 rounds per bull for score, but for results I also measured group size for fun. Take the score and X count with a grain of salt because the holes got ragged and chunks of paper got blown out, so for some it was difficult to estimate.

I started with iris at 3.6 for the first 3 targets because it looked about perfect for my eyes...at least at the start of the testing, so these were warm-ups before I started adjusting the iris up and down.

Target 1 iris at 3.6. Score = 96-2X. Group = 0.730"
Target 2 iris at 3.6. Score = 95-2X. Group = 1.159".
I am fairly sure the flier high right into the 8-7 line was a bad round and not me. No other rounds went into this sector of the targets.


Target 3 iris at 3.6. Score = 99-3X. Group = 0.543"
(I mis-labled target 4 as 5, so there is no #4)
Target 5 iris at 3.0. Score = 97-1X. Group = 0.874"


Target 6 iris at 3.2. Score = 100-5X. Group = 0.474"
Target 7 iris at 3.4. Score = 92-1X. Group = 0.960"


Target 8 iris at 4.0. Score = 96-6X. Group = 0.493"
Target 9 iris at 3.9. Score = 96-5X. Group = 0.641"


Target 10 iris at 3.8. Score = 95-4X. Group = 0.456"
Target 11 iris at 3.7. Score = 96-3X. Group = 0.802"


Target 12 iris at 3.6. Score = 97-3X. Group = 0.830"
The wind suddenly started to pick up here right to left, and it was impossible to wait it out. One round blew out left into the 8 ring. I clicked right 2 clicks (4mm), and the next round touched that on on the inside. I clicked one more (total 6mm right), and brought the next ones back right into the 9/10. The water line was very good except for one flier in the 9 high left.


Discussion:
Wow, I continue to be amazed at how accurate one can shoot with aperture sights. Relying on the eye and brain to center something up that far away, and yet it works! I had 3 groups under 0.5 inches! I often cannot do that with my 45x45 Sightron target scope!

As experienced shooters have have mentioned, a common newbie (like me) error can be using an aperture too small, thinking a narrow white ring is more accurate. Some have stated start with 4.0 and stick with it unless something better works. Sure enough my 4.0 target #8 scored my highest X-count at 6X, and the 2nd smallest group at 0.493". But very interestingly, my best result was iris at 3.2, with score 100-5X, and 0.474" group. Second best score at 97-1X was with iris at 3.0, but X count was pathetically low and group (0.874") was mediocre.

Iris at 3.6 was over-represented in the test because with the light conditions, it looked the best to my eye, but perhaps that was a false impression, because that one test at 4.0 was darn good. If I had more time today, I would have shot more targets with the iris at 4.0.

Obviously nothing here is statistically significant because sample sizes are way too small, and wind although less of a factor today, did cause some variation.

I tried looking in the iris at 2.8, 2.9, but the white ring was quite dark and fuzzy, likely due to the dull overcast light.

The plastic insert kit I started with are the less expensive ones without a black metal ring insert around the aperture, and the plastic bevel makes a grayish, less contrasting ring. The front sight iris provides a jet-black very contrasty ring which I found superior to my plastic insert rings. The inserts are obviously good enough, but with one test I am sold on the advantages of the front sight iris.

10-shot groups are great for measuring group, but its too many for score due to the paper shredding and blow-out issue. For score I should change to 5-shot groups. Time to order more targets!

 

[CanuckCooper]

Thanks biologist for sharing those results with sk rifle match! That’s the ammo I use for sporting rifle. I’ve never benched my Anschutz thus far but I probably should try it. I’ve had good luck so far but the results you printed help explain a few experiences I’ve had shooting it. Although the bulk of my fliers are no doubt me, it makes me wonder what results I’d get using different ammo, perhaps rws… I’ve settled on SK RM simply because it was what I could afford in the volumes I needed and was available…. One of the SFC/ONTarget volunteers who organizes matches I go to is always hunting at me to get better ammo…. Looking back at his scores, he’d routinely shoot 600’s…