Gewehr 71/84

[Nabs]

IIRC, the "Jaegerbusche" rifles were issued to German East African askaris ? Or was that the Jaeger 71 model ?

If it is one those rifles, it would be quite rare as many of the equipment and munitions sent to German held colonies in Africa were never sent back to Germany in 1918.

 

[BUSHMAN79]

I guess I have been more afraid of using smokeless powder than black powder in my 71/84. I am guessing, in theory, that if you were to load a smokeless round to approximately the same amount of pressure to be generated as a black powder round, you would get the same effect ? I'm just worried about the action more than anything else as it wasn't designed with smokeless powder in mind.

I guess when I think about it, I try to stick with what they would have used in the rifle.

The smokeless loads are pretty lame in the .43 Mauser. Just make a popping sound, no big boom. I don't think the metal fatigue thing should be an issue, but I found the black powder loads more accurate in my rifle. The .43 is one of the best rounds for shooting BP, since the long neck allows you to use the proper wad column without reducing the charge. Lots of space in that case. I think you have the wrong bayonet, didn't the 71/84 use a special short bayonet, that's very hard to find? The long one is for the 71. The Jaeger swivel is supposed to be 20cm. from the toe of the butt, so 21 is pretty close. Could be.....

 

[Nabs]

You are correct, the 71/84 was issued with the S. 71/84 bayonet but as you mentioned, these are quite rare to find. Many 71/84s and 88s were re-issued with the Seitengewehr 71 bayonets (the one I have) as this was cheaper to do then make brand new bayonets for them. The majority of photos I have seen with 71/84s and 88s have soldiers with the S.71 bayonet.

 

[BUSHMAN79]

IIRC, the "Jaegerbusche" rifles were issued to German East African askaris ? Or was that the Jaeger 71 model ?

If it is one those rifles, it would be quite rare as many of the equipment and munitions sent to German held colonies in Africa were never sent back to Germany in 1918.

I believe they used 71's. The "Jaegerbusche" 71/84 was, I believe, basically experimental, and wasn't really widely issued.

 

[Nabs]

I believe they used 71's. The "Jaegerbusche" 71/84 was, I believe, basically experimental, and wasn't really widely issued.

Ahh, okay. All I can seem to find in relation to German Askaris in German held Africa are the Jaeger 71 models.

I would imagine by November 1888, any further production on the 71/84 model would have ceased and Mauser would have shifted to smokeless powder, small caliber rifles.

 

[Nabs]

The Jaeger swivel is supposed to be 20cm. from the toe of the butt, so 21 is pretty close. Could be.....

Hmm, interesting. Would the mount have attached somehow to the trigger guard ? Perhaps there is still some marks on there that I have overlooked. I also cannot find any decent pictures of the Jeager mount so it is tough to figure this one out.

 

[Nabs]

I found this on Wikipedia in regards to the Gewehr 71 and the .43 Mauser cartridge:

The cartridge was a metallic 11 x 60R bottlenecked case, holding a

charge of 77 grains (5.0 g) of blackpowder, capped with a 386-grain

(25.0 g) round-tipped bullet.

Does this sound about right (though my bullets would have to be flat nosed) ?

 

[BUSHMAN79]

Just doing some checking..... I found an article about reloading the 71/84, and three smokeless loads are listed. 390gr. lubed bullet, 33gr. H-4198, 1338fps. 34gr. H-4198, 1421fps. 390gr. PATCHED bullet, 34gr. H-4198, 1426fps.

Just checked my rifle, Spandau, serial # is 8061, no letter.

 

[Nabs]

Very nice, looks like your 71/84 was made in Spring of 1887.

As for the smokeless loads, I am guessing a "lubed" bullet would be one that was wiped down in some gun oil or something along those lines ? As for the "Patched" bullet I am guessing here that the bullet would be seated in the cartridge with a cotton wad or something like that underneath it ?

The Dominion .43 Mauser rounds I remember seeing had a white ring around the base of the bullet right where the neck of the cartridge began. I'm tempted to just pick up an old box of Dominion ammo, take a cartridge apart, and analyze it.

Edit: This is the type of round that I saw in a box of Dominion ammo from the '50s

 

[BUSHMAN79]

A lubed bullet would be a plain bullet, with lube in its grease grooves. Patched bullet would be sized down, and then a paper patch wrapped around it to bring it up to size. You may have seen paper patched bullets in old Martini-Henry cartridges.

 

[Musketfire]

Possibly, it is so difficult to tell what caused it. Aside from a handling mark on the left side of the pistol grip and some middle band dings near that portion of the stock, the rest of the rifle is immaculate with only worn bluing to worry about. Every part matches, right down to the screws. I was blown away when I found her and even more so when I realized the very good condition of the bore. I hope you all understand my longing to take her to the range after seeing the images.

The only thing missing is the rear sling swivel and screw which I am working on obtaining. Once that is done, I can finally mount this sling I obtained.

Issued to the 2nd Company of the 10th Grenadier-Regt. König Friedrich Wilhelm II (1.Schlesisches), Ersatz regiment.
(stationed in Schweidnitz) . Attached to the VI Armee Korps. Weapon number 130. This posting puts her about 80km from Posen where my great grandfather was born.

Just look at how complex the internals are and how this section has not been taken apart in well over a century.

My apologizes for the mass amount of photos but I feel it would give you all a better picture of her overall condition. I am proud to say that her serial number would most likely place her being manufactured in Spring of 1888, before the Gewehr 88 made an appearance and during the "Year of Three Emperors". This would also have made her Germany's front line infantry weapon during that period until the Gewehr 88 came in six months later. She may also have seen limited service on the Eastern front against the Russians but I'm not sure about this one.

Great looking rifle, simply beautiful!!

 

[Nabs]

I thought you would enjoy it, Musketfire.

Bushman, as far as the S.71 is concerned, I remember buying it to go along with my Gewehr 88 as I read it was common to issue Gewehr 88s with it. It fits perfectly on my 71/84 so I didn't consider spending $200-300 USD for a 71/84 bayonet though it would be a very nice addition. An interesting accessory to acquire for my Gewehr 71/84 would be the brass muzzle cover but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Guess I will have to keep my eyes open for this piece.

 

[smellie]

The wiki is quite correct. Original loading was 77 grains of Black with the 386-grain RN slug. This was changed in 1884 to a very similar bullet with a small flat on the nose.

DOMINION ammunition was loaded with some sort of PINK smokeless; I took a round apart when I was still in school, remember what a shock I had at PINK gunpowder. And it definitely was NOT wimpy stuff: my Kar. '71 would kick you into the middle of next WEEK if you didn't hold it right.

You CAN use smokeless in these old things, but the BEST powder to use is the same on as recommended in my 1961 Lyman book, which is the same powder as ALL the old-timers used when they got tired of swampiing out crudded barrels. This is SR-4759. It is a very bulky powder, very fast. It has gone out of production several times since I started handloading but it always comes back because there is a NEED for it.

You use SR-4759 in blackpowder cartridge rifles as a 38%-of-Black substitute. Your Mauser uses 77 grains of Black, so your SR-4759 load will be (77x.38=) 29.26 grains of SR-4759. This will duplicate your original ballistic performance and there is no increase in pressure. Rifle is nice and CLEAN even after 100 rounds, too. Bonus!

I have tried the recomended handloads with 4198, 3031 and all the rest in my .50-70 RB and none of them work worth BEANS. SR-4758 is the only substitute which is (a) available and (b) works. It is a bulky powder, too, so you should not need wads or anything like that. Just load 'em up and bang 'em off, take 'em home and load 'em up again..... and again..... and again......

You get the idea.

"Mauser" in German means a 'mouser' as in a cat. At one time they used a letter M with a cat under it as a trademark. So I will run away now and leave you with my wish: Happy Mousing!

(Poor damned mouse, is all I can say!)

 

[smellie]

Sorry, guys: flingers fying ahead of the brain once again, Maybe I should turn on a light so I can see this keyboard.

SR-4759. That's the stuff. Four-seven-five-nine and it is an SR powder (Sporting Rifle) because it was never used by the military. It is the last surviving member of the once-big family of 'bulk' powders, sort of. The old stuff was VERY bulky and came 8 ounces in a 1-pound can! I notice the new stuff is a pound in a 1-pound bottle, so it is likely that they have changed the bulk. Still works the same, same RBR and so forth, ignition characteristics.

And you won't be dissing your anriques, either: SR-4759 is just a new name for a type of powder which has been made for more than a century already. It is the "real thing" for smokeless loads in BP rifles and there is NO other satisfactory substitute (darn it!).

Have fun! That's what it's all about.