Glass Bedded my CIL Anschutz 180 - Now it shoots goofy.
- Thread starter fonestar
- Start date
So did redoing the bedding job solve the issues ? I only ask because I bought a CIL 180 off the exchange last year and it came with pillars and a bedding job done by a previous owner and it is having very similar accuracy issues. I've tried different scopes and 10 different types of ammo and nothing helps. My next step was to get it professionally re-crowned but I think i'll try checking the action for tension first. I've never bedded a rifle before so it might be a good time to learn. Anyway, sorry to hijack your thread but I truly am curious to see how yours turns out.
Cheers
Cheers
I've read the original post, and yours, but nothing in between. Not sure if the issue was solved. I believe the major mistake the OP made was using the action screws (significantly tightened to boot) to torque down the action. The correct way is to use electrician's tape. The objective is do a stress free bedding, and the OP's method would have introduced major stress in the action. I also find it very surprising that the rifle does not have a recoil lug, if it is a high quality gun like an Anschutz. If it has no recoil lug what prevents it from moving in axial direction besides torque in the action screws. Normal practice is to bed the back side of the recoil lug, but not the front. Here is a good procedure to follow:
Stress Free Pillar Bedding
On your issue you might want to consider roughing out a minimal amount of the existing bedding and exposing the pillars if they are not exposed now and then rebedding it. I think the Devcon Plastic Steel Putty is the best initial bedding material. It is very viscous and strong when it sets up. However, if you are rebedding and only adding a thinner layer, I might be tempted to use something much thinner in viscosity, like JB Weld for example. Don't get the quick setting type, or you will never make it.
Thanks for the advice Ron! I still have to check if the existing bedding job is stressing the action like the OP's, but I suspect it is. If I grind a small amount of the existing bedding compound and add new compound would there be a problem with the layers properly bonding to each other?
I think if the original bedding is sound and reasonably thick, and you rough up the surface with 60 grit by hand, it should be fine. However, if you suspect or can tell that the original material is thin, or not good and solid, then it is probably best to grind out to a reasonable thickness everywhere and start over with Devcon Plastic Steel Putty. I think it is the best, but it does not squeeze out evenly if you try to make a think coat, or try to patch with it.
prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
I would never put the second or rear screw back in when waiting for the bedding compound to set. learnt this the hard way
If you take out a small amount of the existing bedding and leave its surface pretty rough it should be fine. If you want to go all "belts and suspenders" on it you could take a small drill bit and make a few holes here and there in what's left of the existing bedding material, too, for some extra mechanical lock. But I sincerely doubt you'll need to worry about that. Taking out some bedding and leaving it rough should be fine. The new layer you put in should adhere to that quite well.
As for using the action screws to hold the action in place while waiting for the bedding to cure, well, if you look at that link that was shared you'll see they should indeed be installed. But they should be installed to hold the pillars in place against the action, while OUT of the stock! See Photo 2. And the action, pillars, and screws should fit in and out of the stock as one complete unit. Then the bedding material should be gooped into the enlarged action screw holes so that the pillars become one with the stock and bedding material. During the bedding job they are not involved in holding the action in place in the stock, as all they're doing is holding the pillars in place against the stock. Obviously this is a lot tougher to do when you're redoing someone else's bedding job. But simple when you're doing it the first time. I wouldn't want the job of removing bedded-in pillars to do the job again. But if you wanted to 100% ensure it was done right, that's what you'd have to do. Remove them and do it right.
As for using the action screws to hold the action in place while waiting for the bedding to cure, well, if you look at that link that was shared you'll see they should indeed be installed. But they should be installed to hold the pillars in place against the action, while OUT of the stock! See Photo 2. And the action, pillars, and screws should fit in and out of the stock as one complete unit. Then the bedding material should be gooped into the enlarged action screw holes so that the pillars become one with the stock and bedding material. During the bedding job they are not involved in holding the action in place in the stock, as all they're doing is holding the pillars in place against the stock. Obviously this is a lot tougher to do when you're redoing someone else's bedding job. But simple when you're doing it the first time. I wouldn't want the job of removing bedded-in pillars to do the job again. But if you wanted to 100% ensure it was done right, that's what you'd have to do. Remove them and do it right.
Last edited:
Well, it doesn't even need much force. As long as you get it seated to the location you want it, and it doesn't move, it is fine. Really cranking it down, with screws or tape or anything else, is what can introduce stress. All that's required is ensuring it is in the right location and it doesn't move until cured. Obviously tape wouldn't torque on it like screws would, and it wouldn't be as critical when it is tape, but less is more. 
Well, it doesn't even need much force. As long as you get it seated to the location you want it, and it doesn't move, it is fine. Really cranking it down, with screws or tape or anything else, is what can introduce stress. All that's required is ensuring it is in the right location and it doesn't move until cured. Obviously tape wouldn't torque on it like screws would, and it wouldn't be as critical when it is tape, but less is more.
Very true. Even electrical tape can preload the stock and action if applied too tight or if too much tape is used (speaking from my own experience....). Just go easy and you will be fine, using one action screw to hold everything in place is fine as long as it is "finger tight".
K
Well, it doesn't even need much force. As long as you get it seated to the location you want it, and it doesn't move, it is fine. Really cranking it down, with screws or tape or anything else, is what can introduce stress. All that's required is ensuring it is in the right location and it doesn't move until cured. Obviously tape wouldn't torque on it like screws would, and it wouldn't be as critical when it is tape, but less is more.
Devcon Plastic Steel Putty is very viscous. Putty is a good description. It does not run or even flow well like other standard epoxy or fiberglass resin mixes. You do need a reasonable amount of force, well distributed down the action to make it flow and fit all of the action. If you have one issue with using it, it will likely be voids where you didn't get it to flow in. I think the secret is to distribute the tape well.
RonAKA;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust this Friday finds you well.
'
Thanks for the link, its always good to read and see what other folks are doing even when it's something not entirely new to us - or so I've come to believe. Never too old to learn and all that.
I've done a fair bit of bedding various types of rifle actions over the years and have settled on either bicycle inner tubes or surgical tubing to keep the actions where I want them. Even with these, I believe we can get it too tight and bend/warp the action - depending upon what we're doing.
What I mean there is for instance a military Mauser 98 can be bent at the thumb slot quite easily, but it's tougher to bend say a 788 Remington action as they're pretty stiff - and of course there's everything in between.
I like pillars, but can't honestly say there's a difference between epoxy pillar, carbon fiber or aluminum. Mostly I use arrow shafts anymore as there seems to be a pile of them under my work bench....
Lastly a few respondents mentioned switching out the scope and that's often a good place to start - especially if one is using a non-adjustable objective and shooting at .22 rimfire distances. Some of the scopes parallax enough at say 30-50yds that making repeat shots even off the bench is a tough task.
It's easy to test this - put the rifle on a solid rest front and back, sighted to your target at whatever distance you're shooting. Then not touching the rifle at all, just looking through the scope - see if the target/bulls eye moves as you move your eye. If it does, we've got a parallax situation and it'll be a challenge to shoot good groups at that range with that setup.
Hopefully that was useful to someone out there. Good luck with your tackdriving rimfire rifles all.
Dwayne
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust this Friday finds you well.
'
Thanks for the link, its always good to read and see what other folks are doing even when it's something not entirely new to us - or so I've come to believe. Never too old to learn and all that.
I've done a fair bit of bedding various types of rifle actions over the years and have settled on either bicycle inner tubes or surgical tubing to keep the actions where I want them. Even with these, I believe we can get it too tight and bend/warp the action - depending upon what we're doing.
What I mean there is for instance a military Mauser 98 can be bent at the thumb slot quite easily, but it's tougher to bend say a 788 Remington action as they're pretty stiff - and of course there's everything in between.
I like pillars, but can't honestly say there's a difference between epoxy pillar, carbon fiber or aluminum. Mostly I use arrow shafts anymore as there seems to be a pile of them under my work bench....
Lastly a few respondents mentioned switching out the scope and that's often a good place to start - especially if one is using a non-adjustable objective and shooting at .22 rimfire distances. Some of the scopes parallax enough at say 30-50yds that making repeat shots even off the bench is a tough task.
It's easy to test this - put the rifle on a solid rest front and back, sighted to your target at whatever distance you're shooting. Then not touching the rifle at all, just looking through the scope - see if the target/bulls eye moves as you move your eye. If it does, we've got a parallax situation and it'll be a challenge to shoot good groups at that range with that setup.
Hopefully that was useful to someone out there. Good luck with your tackdriving rimfire rifles all.
Dwayne
I know. I did my CZ 453 Varmint and my Anschutz 1712 with the stuff. Goop a bunch of it everywhere, and push the action down into the stock until it is in the right location. All the excess oozes out and then you put a bit of tape on there to hold it in place. Then clean the excess off and let it cure. Once it is located, put a bit of tape on just to make sure things don't move. And that doesn't require a lot of tape, or a lot of cinching down, either. You should've already pushed it into place by hand by then. If you're really cinching it down with tape, that's possible stress on the action right there.
When I bedded my 455 I used surgical tube to hold the action in place, plus threaded the action screws in hand tight for alignment purposes.
I left two narrow supporting bands of wood, one at the front of the action, one at the rear, and ground out any other contact areas to give roughly 1/8 inch clearance for the Devcon.
The original plan was to Dremel out the wood support bands once the epoxy had set up, then refill with more Devcon in the second step, but it shot well enough that I didn't bother. If it ain't broke..etc.
I have a couple minor voids that I planned to touch up too, but it's not worth doing. It IS possible to make it worse, I'd rather not take that chance for no good reason.
I left two narrow supporting bands of wood, one at the front of the action, one at the rear, and ground out any other contact areas to give roughly 1/8 inch clearance for the Devcon.
The original plan was to Dremel out the wood support bands once the epoxy had set up, then refill with more Devcon in the second step, but it shot well enough that I didn't bother. If it ain't broke..etc.
I have a couple minor voids that I planned to touch up too, but it's not worth doing. It IS possible to make it worse, I'd rather not take that chance for no good reason.
I was able to eliminate all voids by applying the bedding compound to both, the stock and the action. It can get messy and requires some extra cleanup but if you brush the compound onto the action carefully and then apply the usual amount into the inletting the result are excellent (zero voids).
K
K
I do the same except just use studs instead of screws and let the tubing keep it all together.
R
Last edited:
Here is a post I made on bedding my Savage BTVS. Perhaps It would be of help. Your gun will be different, but it may give you some ideas what to do and what not to do. With good Lapua ammo it will shoot down to 1/4" five shot groups at 50 yards. The main advantage of pillars especially in the savage is that it lets you increase the torque on your action screws. If you try to torque the Savage as it comes from the factory, it just opens up like a clam. With pillars I now torque my action screws to about 25 in-lbs.
