Glock Blocked: SIG P320 Remains New US Army Pistol As GAO Rejects Glock Claim

Good choice but if you can't shoot any pistol well then it's you that needs work not the gun.



Wow, anyone know who holds the record for the ignore list??? I think we have a contender!!!!
You just keep on keepin on sunshine, that record is yours :)
 
I will try mine when I get it in a IWB! There is more pleasure when ribbed!!

Ribbed is not a good comparison, I think cheese grater is a better comparison for the RTF2 diamonds. My frame had some really sharp ones, but a little work with a 3M scouring pad took the edge off.
 
I will try mine when I get it in a IWB! There is more pleasure when ribbed!!

Ribbed is not a good comparison, I think cheese grater is a better comparison for the RTF2 diamonds. My frame had some really sharp ones, but a little work with a 3M scouring pad took the edge off.

Cheese grater?? Sounds painful! It'll be a training and competition gun so it will be in a OWB holster. I'll still use my G19 for IDPA. The scouring pad idea sounds good.
 
Explain how or why anyone would need or want to swap frame sizes or calibres? If a compact Glock/HK/SIG does the job then there's no need for a full size gun and vise versa. The modularity thing was a retarded request by the US Army and far from a practical one. Regardless you can still swap calibres with a Glock by simply swapping slides and if you feel so inclined the trigger mechanism housing but it's not required.(applies to standard frame guns only)

The trigger is crap for a single action striker fired gun with a published pull weight of 5.5-7.5 lbs and tested models running at just over 6 lbs. And yes it is in fact a single action striker fired gun like the Glock.

"Sounds like Bovine Scattology to me".
- Stormin' Norman Schwartzkopf: referring to the claimed superiority of Glock to the M9 Beretta during the first Gulf War. The General carried a presentation grade stainless Sig P225 given to him by German Chancellor Helmet Kohl.
 
It can't be my MO because I don't own a Glock nor am I a closed-minded brand whore who would ever declare I owned "the best/make design of pistol" and furiously defend my choice at every turn. The Glock is a serviceable, competent firearm but certainly nothing extraordinary and is easily matched by its competitors.

You've clearly lost the plot here. I'm not the least bit closed minded about my pistol choice. When comparing the Glock to others there is nothing out there that does anything better than a Glock and very few do anything as well as a Glock. You say it's easily matched by its competitors, please provide data that supports that claim. Last I checked Glock is by far the most popular brand of firearm on the planet as far as handguns go.

Good choice but if you can't shoot any pistol well then it's you that needs work not the gun.



Wow, anyone know who holds the record for the ignore list??? I think we have a contender!!!!
You just keep on keepin on sunshine, that record is yours :)

Again I ask you to refute what I posted. Fundamentals are the same across all firearms, either you know them and can demonstrate them or you can't.

"Sounds like Bovine Scattology to me".
- Stormin' Norman Schwartzkopf: referring to the claimed superiority of Glock to the M9 Beretta during the first Gulf War. The General carried a presentation grade stainless Sig P225 given to him by German Chancellor Helmet Kohl.

And again, please elaborate on your claim otherwise you're p*ssing in the wind.. Your own ridiculous quote contradicts itself. The issued pistol was the M9 and the General chose a single stack compact SIG pistol instead. So much for faith in the Beretta.
 
You've clearly lost the plot here. I'm not the least bit closed minded about my pistol choice. When comparing the Glock to others there is nothing out there that does anything better than a Glock and very few do anything as well as a Glock. You say it's easily matched by its competitors, please provide data that supports that claim. Last I checked Glock is by far the most popular brand of firearm on the planet as far as handguns go.

.


Hmmm, the McDonald theory.
 
Hmmm, the McDonald theory.

If you're referring to numbers sold vs McDonald's the fast food chain you'd be grossly out of context. Have a look around, those who shoot people for a living are using Glock pistols, not SIG or HK or anyone else. Military units, SF units, LE units, the majority are using Glock pistols. Before you say it the answer isn't because of price, if that were the case then Hi Point would have market cornered. Competitive shooters are using Glock pistols and lots of them. CCW permit holders are carying Glock pistols. The list goes on and on. What other brand has such a wide influence?
 
You've clearly lost the plot here. I'm not the least bit closed minded about my pistol choice. When comparing the Glock to others there is nothing out there that does anything better than a Glock and very few do anything as well as a Glock. You say it's easily matched by its competitors, please provide data that supports that claim. Last I checked Glock is by far the most popular brand of firearm on the planet as far as handguns go.



Again I ask you to refute what I posted. Fundamentals are the same across all firearms, either you know them and can demonstrate them or you can't.



And again, please elaborate on your claim otherwise you're p*ssing in the wind.. Your own ridiculous quote contradicts itself. The issued pistol was the M9 and the General chose a single stack compact SIG pistol instead. So much for faith in the Beretta.
The point is only that both were chosen over Glock. And, BTW, you're just feeding the show for everybody. Maybe you could lighten up a bit and not take it so seriously. Everybody loves Glock. They just love riding you more.
 
I love how "low bore axis" mantra gets mentioned all the time. Practically no one who says it really knows what it means. Very few even understand that on an automatic pistol is not the same as vector of recoil for example. Realistically you can't even compare felt recoil and/or flip from a pistol to pistol based just on "bore axis" no matter how low or high it is. How low is low or how high a high can be and if you even mention pound inch or god forbid newton meters in the same sentence you get a blank stare....

But since some marketing shmuck had to add a talking point into a presentation, the "low bore axis" found a very special place in hearts and minds.
 
Hmmm, the McDonald theory.
Yup. He seems committed to actually making my point which is the Glock fandom is less about the pistol itself and more about who and how many of those "who shoot other people for a living" use it too. It is the same absence of critical thinking and fixation on celebrity that might prompt him to wear Calvin Klein underwear because Justin Bieber endorsed the brand.
 
The point is only that both were chosen over Glock. And, BTW, you're just feeding the show for everybody. Maybe you could lighten up a bit and not take it so seriously. Everybody loves Glock. They just love riding you more.

Both were chosen over Glock for reasons outside performance. Lighten up? You are sadly mistaken if you think the mental musings on this site carry any weight in my day to day life...

I love how "low bore axis" mantra gets mentioned all the time. Practically no one who says it really knows what it means. Very few even understand that on an automatic pistol is not the same as vector of recoil for example. Realistically you can't even compare felt recoil and/or flip from a pistol to pistol based just on "bore axis" no matter how low or high it is. How low is low or how high a high can be and if you even mention pound inch or god forbid newton meters in the same sentence you get a blank stare....

But since some marketing shmuck had to add a talking point into a presentation, the "low bore axis" found a very special place in hearts and minds.

Are you saying a low or lower bore axis is not a net positive?? I never said it was the be all to end all what I posted was that the low(er) bore axis of a Glock pistol is a positive attribute that many pistols don't share.

Yup. He seems committed to actually making my point which is the Glock fandom is less about the pistol itself and more about who and how many of those "who shoot other people for a living" use it too. It is the same absence of critical thinking and fixation on celebrity that might prompt him to wear Calvin Klein underwear because Justin Bieber endorsed the brand.

You seem committed to validating my point in that most people are incapable of reading comprehension, deductive reasoning or critical thinking. It's not about what unit uses Glock pistols. The point is about who is using it in what capacity. The range plinkers on this forum or any other are absolutely inconsequential with regards to what they use or why. When you talk about units that can pick what they want for the sole purpose of defending themselves and those units are choosing Glock, that's a bit of a big deal. Even when the Beretta was the issue pistol it wasn't the choice of the elite units. Same story here for the 320, it simply is not being selected. Again, when you do a little research and see just how many elite units have chosen Glock it starts to form a pattern. Add in the elite LE units, regular LE units and regular MIL forces that have adopted Glock as well and the you might start to see the bigger picture.

I'm a fan of gear that works and couldn't care less what brand it was. No one has made a pistol that out performs a Glock with the same features. It hasn't changed much in the 37 years it has been around and it only grows in popularity. The 20 or so companies that have attempted to copy the recipe only reinforce that point.
 
Are you saying a low or lower bore axis is not a net positive??

I am saying that "low bore axis" is a meaningless talking point. 100% marketing bs.

To begin with, the point at which recoil is transferred to the slide and into your hand is located at the height of the slide stop. Reflect on that for a moment. A "super amazing advantage low bore axis" and "ugly old super high bore axis" like sig 226 are in fact hitting your hand with force vector applied to slide stop height. Yet no one markets the low slide stop position.

Second, the moment of force which flips a gun is a somewhat complex sum of barrel mass flipping up, slide center mass sliding back, center mass barrel and slide applying recoil force to slide stop and lower mass of the pistol countering that torque. Until you calculate all that "lower bore axis" is totally irrelevant in order to tell which gun is better or worse.

Simple example - glock locks on ejection port, barrel flips up as slide goes back. Beretta Storm - barrel rotates. Can you in your head estimate what effect a flip vs rotate would make on overall performance? I can't. But this is not obvious "advantage/disadvantage" but "low bore axis" is clearly obvious selling point, right?

Or take Glock vs Beretta 92. One flips up, locks on port, slide is solid, the other locks by block going up and down, no barrel flip, slide is just a frame practically. Can you possibly estimate the differences in moving masses, vectors and all that? No, does it matter - yes a lot. But it is not obvious, so you can't advertise on it, but hey, "low bore axis as shown on this pretty marketing material" solves all that evaluation pain for you.

Not convinced yet? Well take same pistol, say CZ 75, replace 16 lb recoil spring with 11 lb. Same gun, same everything geometry and masses. Muzzle jump is different. I even dare to say that the "omg bore axis didn't get any lower", yet the result changes.

How you can possible compare all that to a "but a glock has low bore axis" chant which magically has to prove something or give it some advantage over you don't even know what?
 
owlowl loving it. It's been 55 years since I took a physics class but I get it. Explaining physics to a marketing savy type like Kidd X might be a struggle but I salute you for trying.

Take Care

Bob
 
wink.


Best part;
(00:25) - You shout Glock Prefection!!! Yet you change the trigger, the spring, the guide rod, the grip texture and the trigger pull (and I would add replacing sights to this list - as well)

Few pros talking about Glock upgrades.


(02:20) - One biggest single complain that I hear from Glock users, is that the Sigs are way to expensive to buy. :evil:
 
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Wasnt one of the requirements to have thumb safety?

glock submitted there pistol with no thumb safety? Which disqualifies them automatically.

As far as I remember the requirements included:

Manual safety
Grip and size conversions
Calibre conversions

Apparently, the military version of the sig will indeed have a thumb safety.
 
Very nice and well written, too bad he was or is banned


Explain how or why anyone would need or want to swap frame sizes or calibres? If a compact Glock/HK/SIG does the job then there's no need for a full size gun and vise versa. The modularity thing was a retarded request by the US Army and far from a practical one. Regardless you can still swap calibres with a Glock by simply swapping slides and if you feel so inclined the trigger mechanism housing but it's not required.(applies to standard frame guns only)

The trigger is crap for a single action striker fired gun with a published pull weight of 5.5-7.5 lbs and tested models running at just over 6 lbs. And yes it is in fact a single action striker fired gun unlike the double action of a Glock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_qStEMQPts Start the video at 1:55 and watch the striker as it is RELEASED with the trigger pull and not charged and released.
Here's another write up about their striker design.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/23/clarifying-double-action-only-dao/

Here's my list of Glock pros, beside each line I will add a "G" for Glock or an "S" for SIG or a "B" for both guns.

Low bore axis G
Cold hammer forged barrel G
Polygonal rifling G
No positive safety B
Reliable G (The 320 has very little track record)
Low profile controls(slide stop) B(even though the location of the slide stop on the 320 is difficult to reach with your thumb as it's behind the first knuckle)
Fewest parts of any service calibre pistol G
Interchangeable sights B
Light weight G
Slim/small dimensions G
Consistent trigger pull B (although the 320 trigger could be anywhere between 5.5-7.5 lbs)
Short trigger pull S (by 1/10th of an inch and it is a single action gun. Sh*tty trigger for an SA gun)
100% drop safe B
Parts interchangeability between same models and most other models B
Magazine interchangeability between like calibre guns G
Large magazine capacities(compared to overall dimensions and weight) G (dimensionally the G is smaller and lighter than the SIG with equal capacity)
Multiple sizes (long slide, practical/tactical, full/standard, compact, sub compact) B(more options for the G)
Identical control layout(all models) and size across multiple calibres/models B
Easy to repair(one tool required) B
Cheap to repair B
Holster cross compatibility over multiple calibres and models B
Ergonomic grip angle G(sorry, the 1911 grip angle is wrong which is what the 320 is modeled after, a locked wrist is more stable and the Glock grip angle was designed around that)
Accessory rail(not on all generations) B

The only attributes the SIG has are the shorter trigger which it should as it is an SA gun not a DA gun. The gain is minimal and the weight of trigger pull is brutal for an SA gun. And the "modularity" of which no one ever needs or wants it as a calibre or size convesion kit is almost the same price as another complete gun. What has SIG designed on their own that doesn't have it's roots in a Glock? The trigger tab safety is a Glock trait. The very low profile controls and lack of manual safety is a Glock trait. The Polymer framed striker fired pistol with the aforementioned attributes was popularized by Glock. In the early years everyone poo poo'd Glocks and said they were junk and that striker fired guns and especially polymer framed guns were a fad. The lack of a manual/positive safety was dangerous and another fad. And yet here we are, a world where everyone and their dog is trying to copy the Glock recipe and sell the same product.

Here's who has attempted to make a "better" poly striker gun.

FN(multiple times)
S&W (multiple times, even got sued for patent infringement once)
Ruger(multiple times)
Springfield(multiple times)
HK
Arsenal
Diamondback
Kahr Arms(multiple times)
SIG
Walther(multiple times)
Steyr
CZ
Beretta
Remington
Avidity Arms (Rob Pincus design)
Kimber
Canik
Taurus
Caracal

The only one missing I can think of is Colt. What's odd and rather humorous is that both Beretta and S&W have a long record of making pistols with mechanical safeties and metal frames. Now both of them have moved away from both of those attributes completely. Beretta is especially entertaining as they attempted to fix the Beretta 92/M9 problems by offering the M9A3 as a replacement for the MHS trials. Beretta was politely told to go pound sand. Immediately after that they dropped their new wonder pistol of manual safety/decocker and alloy frame design for a completely polymer framed striker fired gun... I'm sure some will say that's Beretta innovation; When it's really just a pathetic attempt to jump on the polymer striker fired pistol band wagon and try and pick up the scraps of MIL/LE contracts that might get left behind by others, namely GLOCK.

You asked about reliability. Have a google look around and read the many torture tests done to Glock pistols. Notice that the vast majority of LE and elite LE units(counter terror/swat etc) and SF MIL units use Glock pistols. Here's a quick grab from the interwebs about high round count Glock pistols.

http://www.glockforum.com/How-Long-Will-Your-Glock-Last.html

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=360611

And another with some details.
http://www.tactical-life.com/combat-handguns/glock-17-9mm-torture-test/






I'm sure that's your M.O but I already know I have the best make/design of pistol around and have had for years. I surely wouldn't seek validation on this forum if I ever was in the market for it.



Good choice but if you can't shoot any pistol well then it's you that needs work not the gun.
 
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