Glocks and practice.....
- Thread starter caramel
- Start date
I disagree. If you're tailoring your gun to your inability to apply the fundamentals then your selection process is wrong.
"so I should buy a glock"
I'm a fan of glocks for many reasons, some or all of which may not apply to you. What a person needs to do is have a real honest look at what they intend to do with the pistol and what they may do with the pistol. Evaluate the needs vs the wants and clearly validate why you feel you "need" said criteria and why you "want" said criteria. Then look at reviews, parts availability, accessory options like holsters and sights. Obviously price will play a factor as well and perhaps the discipline you wish to shoot may limit your options. The point here is plan it out with logic and facts, not personal opinion or "how it feels" bs. For a person with little to no experience with a handgun, most will "feel" great. I strongly recommend you try before you buy if at all possible. Even without a range that offers rentals, most members are more than willing to let you give their guns a go. listen to their pros and cons for the pistol but don't take it at face value. If 5 people complain about the same thing then its quite possible its a common problem.
Tdc
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Correct.
WGT Consulting
Regular
- Location
- Quinte West Ontario
TDC,
I have enjoyed your responses to this thread. You present many well thought out points that I thoroughly agree with. I will disagree on one point. Yes, fundamental skills are common to all however, in addition to your points about pistol choice I believe that you also need to account for ergonomics and physiology of the individual (this will translate to how a pistol feels). Not everyone is made the same way and that needs to accounted for in equipment choices.
All these points are the reason I offer a wide variety of pistols and carbines in my training services and the reason behind "Drop In Days". Trying before you buy is good advices and will really help you get exactly what you want out of your equipment, as opposed to what looks cool or what you think might work for you.
Thanks for your contributions to this thread. I think they will very helpful to new shooters and anyone looking for a new pistol.
Will
Chief instructor
WGT Consulting
training@wgtconsulting.com
TDC most of what you write these days makes sense ( albeit repetitive) but the logic to this statement eludes me. If the guys have more trigger time on a 1911 than a Glock I would expect them not to be able to shoot the Glock as well. Too, if the Glock is a crappy pistol as you unintentionally suggest why would you be surprised to see shooters shooting an apparently better pistol..... better.
Personally I don't care for the Luger angle of the grip that Glocks have. It causes the gun to naturally point high or is it low? The few times I shoot a Glock always causes me to rethink the adjustment I have to make to bring the gun to target. You Glock users learn to do it automatically. I run either my GP-100 or a M&P/CZ most of the time so learning a Glock fundamental isn't necessary.
Glocks are great guns and when applied to their original intended use are outstanding at filling the need for a relatively inexpensive firearm for police and military units in their stock form. The gun was a game changer for Law Enforcement and their budgets. That said I don't buy my guns to kill people or to defend my life (who needs the legal bills and the jail time), I buy them for recreation, playing IDPA and IPSC. At my age I do alright with a body that is something less than new out of the box and no amount of training is going to offset the miles underneath my feet. So what I find interesting in your thinking is you apply your value systems to all others as if they are truisms that will out last the 10 Commandments.
Improving how a mechanical device works in order to use the device in an activity the gun was not designed for may have nothing to do with poor or good fundamentals either lacking or achieved. The cheap polymer sights on the Glock 17 work well enough in a police environment where accuracy standards are relatively low but high enough for the expected use the firearms are likely to encounter or what the taxpayers are prepared to fund. They work ok for shooting at tan targets for some but for others not so well and can be changed out without much expense. No crutch just an improvement in a mechanical device for a changed intended use. So to trigger springs and other sundry parts.
Lastly I marvel at what some here can achieve with their stock guns. I do so. primarily because I know I would never have been driven to achieve that skill level, assuming I had the physical attributes to allow it all to happen. That said, I used to golf with a 3 handicap and I doubt there is a poster on this thread who could claim the same....and it took a hell of a lot of work to get there I might add. My point being, anyone can achieve a peak level, for them, if they are driven to do so in any activity they choose. Few however, are inclined to do, or have the time or funds, so anything they feel will make the shooting experience more pleasant, including lightning their triggers or adding different sights may have nothing to do with the fundamentals of shooting,.... what ever they happen to be today. It may be because they can....and do.
From my experience, I have no doubt anyone who can make a Glock shoot well can shoot almost anything else... well.
Take Care
Bob
My point exactly. I shoot my Glocks about as fast as any of my other pistols. My HK's and Walthers have a wee bit more inherent accuracy (I mean very slight, maybe a half inch tighter in slow fire...no difference in rapid fire). I agree with TDC that formal training will point out errors you would otherwise not be aware of. Once you have fundamentals you may notice that certain things make the application of the skills quicker (for instance, I do much better with small grip inserts on plastic guns vs. large). Once again...the actual degree of 'quicker' is slight but noticeable. These differences are likely not important to the 'practical use of the pistol', but if one likes the advantage (for example shooting super tight groups for fun), what's wrong with that???
Choosing a pistol also has to take into account other factors like size (concealability), and ease of spare parts acquisition, maintenance. In this regard the Glock 19 trumps the HK"s and Walthers I prefer.
Ultimately I own a variety of guns and shoot with them as much as I can. shooting a gun you don't have as much muscle memory with is actually a helpful exercise as it forces you to focus on fundamentals.
In terms of target shooting and not defending ourselves from an ISIS ambush...
Guy 1:
1. Spends $5,000 a year on training courses
2. Preaches and Practices fundamentals and drills religiously
3. Practices with snap caps and can shoot with an empty casing suspended on BBL all the while standing on one foot with a polka dot sock
4. Uses a stock G17 with 5.5lb trigger and absolutely no mods
Guy 2
1. Spends nothing on training
2. Never practices fundamentals and drills or the like
3. Uses a Modified G17 with complete ZEV fulcrum Trigger and Heinie sights
Both Guys go to the range together and shoot exactly the same groups, if anything Guy 2's groups are slightly better.
If you shoot well, you shoot well or do you only shoot well if you haven't modded your gun and taken a plethora of fundamentals training?
Jimi Hendrix never learned the fundamentals of reading or writing music, would he have been a better guitar player if he did?
Guy 1:
1. Spends $5,000 a year on training courses
2. Preaches and Practices fundamentals and drills religiously
3. Practices with snap caps and can shoot with an empty casing suspended on BBL all the while standing on one foot with a polka dot sock
4. Uses a stock G17 with 5.5lb trigger and absolutely no mods
Guy 2
1. Spends nothing on training
2. Never practices fundamentals and drills or the like
3. Uses a Modified G17 with complete ZEV fulcrum Trigger and Heinie sights
Both Guys go to the range together and shoot exactly the same groups, if anything Guy 2's groups are slightly better.
If you shoot well, you shoot well or do you only shoot well if you haven't modded your gun and taken a plethora of fundamentals training?
Jimi Hendrix never learned the fundamentals of reading or writing music, would he have been a better guitar player if he did?
Like everything else in life...it depends!!!
My shooting improved significantly with formal training.
My good friend who never took formal training just practices dryfire and livefire by himself and is an excellent shot. I needed the training to approach his skill. Some people are good at figuring things out on their own. Some need someone else to show us.
We are all different. Do what works and enjoy the shooting!!!!
A stock Glock is pretty friggin's good if you ask me. Maybe a quick polish job on the internals and you're GTG.
There are very few "guy #2's" or Jimmy Hendrix in the world. Would you rather hope and pretend you'll be as good as Jimmy Hendrix or take some lessons and have a realistic chance at being good in general?
Everything we do as humans aside from blinking, breathing, and SH!tting is a learned behavior. You can't self teach a perishable skill like shooting and expect good to great results without some form of professional training.
I will answer the posts above later but I want to touch on this particular topic right now.
The "feel" and ergonomics of a pistol are total bs. No one has yet explained just what "ergonomics" are desired in the shape, size, style of a pistol grip. If you're new to shooting what data are you using to make the decision regarding "ergonomics"? the answer is that people are using "feel" and "comfort" and neither are necessary or valid when it comes to marksmanship.
Sight alignment
Trigger squeeze
Follow through
It doesn't matter how you align the sights, as long as they're aligned on the target and remain there you'll make hits. If you depress the trigger with proper control and do not disturb the sights, you'll make hits. If you follow through after the shot with proper recoil management, you'll make hits.
I've made shots with me holding the gun, my arms underneath a buddies so that my arms are "his" arms. He directed the pistol to his eye and talked me through aligning the sights. Then a third person depressed the trigger while standing to the side and not looking at the target. Tell me again how ergonomics and feel and new triggers make any difference???
Anyone ever see bob Munden shoot a playing card while using the reflection in a diamond ring over his shoulder? I see ergos and feel were a huge part of that. He runs sa guns with fixed sights for f@@ks sake!
Stop blaming your poor performance on gear. Get some training and put in the effort to better yourself.
Tdc
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TDC, you have been posting good stuff, thank you for your posts. For once you do not sound like a D-bag when you write, I can tell you are putting some effort into it so we can like you again. Just joking.
Anyway, quoting you:
--- You can't self teach a perishable skill like shooting and expect good to great results without some form of professional training. ----
I have to disagree with you here.
Some people can pick up a language without training, Some people can play an instrument without any training, some people can draw anything without training and some people can shoot very well without any training. I have had the pleasure to meet a few people in my short lifetime that excelled in different areas without any training.
It happens. As humans as we are talented like that.
Anyway, quoting you:
--- You can't self teach a perishable skill like shooting and expect good to great results without some form of professional training. ----
I have to disagree with you here.
Some people can pick up a language without training, Some people can play an instrument without any training, some people can draw anything without training and some people can shoot very well without any training. I have had the pleasure to meet a few people in my short lifetime that excelled in different areas without any training.
It happens. As humans as we are talented like that.
I agree with most of what TDC says except the " You can't learn how to shoot without training." Someone had to figure out how to shoot on their own, unless the skill was handed down from some God-like being. It will certainly be easier to learn to shoot with training but it's not impossible to get good without it. Just expect to tale longer and go through more ammo.
The key is "some". You can only benefit from training. Learning a language is not the same thing as learning to shoot. In addition, learning to speak it is the easy part, reading and especially writing it is another story. How do people self teach a language? Either a home study program like elzetta stone or they immerse themselves in the culture.
Tdc
Now I get it....
well, I'm off to Jane and Finch. Once immersed in that culture, shooting a Glock will be second nature.
Wrong culture but do let us know how that works for you.
Tdc
