Glocks and practice.....

In terms of target shooting and not defending ourselves from an ISIS ambush...

Guy 1:

1. Spends $5,000 a year on training courses
2. Preaches and Practices fundamentals and drills religiously
3. Practices with snap caps and can shoot with an empty casing suspended on BBL all the while standing on one foot with a polka dot sock
4. Uses a stock G17 with 5.5lb trigger and absolutely no mods

Guy 2

1. Spends nothing on training
2. Never practices fundamentals and drills or the like
3. Uses a Modified G17 with complete ZEV fulcrum Trigger and Heinie sights

Both Guys go to the range together and shoot exactly the same groups, if anything Guy 2's groups are slightly better.

If you shoot well, you shoot well or do you only shoot well if you haven't modded your gun and taken a plethora of fundamentals training?
Jimi Hendrix never learned the fundamentals of reading or writing music, would he have been a better guitar player if he did?

IF you find these two guys, please explain to guy A that he needs to stop huffing spray paint.

This is the dumbest analogy possible. It does not describe two average guys at all.

I can take a dead beginner and have them running a glock WELL in 500 rounds. 2000 rounds and a sporting guy could scare most recreational shooters.

A half hour of coaching and my wife shot better than the average MP in a qualifier, IIRC.

Shooting is easy, and glocks are easy to shoot.
 
I wouldnt say easy, prepping the trigger and holding for reset can be taught quickly but muscle memory takes practice, lots of rounds down range to train muscle and also alot of ammo to keep muscle memory. I go thru 150 rounds a week just to keep the skills i have. Alot of people can shoot good at the range but not alot can shoot quickly and accurately under stress and in my experience that takes practice with live ammo.
 
IF you find these two guys, please explain to guy A that he needs to stop huffing spray paint.

This is the dumbest analogy possible. It does not describe two average guys at all.

I can take a dead beginner and have them running a glock WELL in 500 rounds. 2000 rounds and a sporting guy could scare most recreational shooters.

A half hour of coaching and my wife shot better than the average MP in a qualifier, IIRC.

Shooting is easy, and glocks are easy to shoot.

absolutely correct. A little time and a competent coach and most anyone will be shooting decent groups. Hence why some of us push the others here to TAKE A CLASS. Lots of fun, lots of shooting, and you'll see a huge difference in your abilities if you go with an open mind and put in some effort.

Shooting isn't some mystical magical feat. Its applying the fundamentals consistently and on demand. Their isn't much to learn, but it takes some time to master where it becomes second nature.

I wouldnt say easy, prepping the trigger and holding for reset can be taught quickly but muscle memory takes practice, lots of rounds down range to train muscle and also alot of ammo to keep muscle memory. I go thru 150 rounds a week just to keep the skills i have. Alot of people can shoot good at the range but not alot can shoot quickly and accurately under stress and in my experience that takes practice with live ammo.

I also agree, that shooting rapidly and accurately while under stress, be in competition or on the street does take a lot of practice, which is why we practice and continue to train. No sense worrying about shooting accurately at speed when most can't do it on demand with all the time in the world to make the shot, and aftermarket triggers, sights and every other gimmick.

TDC
 
I give no condition, shooting accurately is the goal, even slowly, you can put it were you want, that is good enough and fun... JP.
 
TDC,

I have enjoyed your responses to this thread. You present many well thought out points that I thoroughly agree with. I will disagree on one point. Yes, fundamental skills are common to all however, in addition to your points about pistol choice I believe that you also need to account for ergonomics and physiology of the individual (this will translate to how a pistol feels). Not everyone is made the same way and that needs to accounted for in equipment choices.

All these points are the reason I offer a wide variety of pistols and carbines in my training services and the reason behind "Drop In Days". Trying before you buy is good advices and will really help you get exactly what you want out of your equipment, as opposed to what looks cool or what you think might work for you.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread. I think they will very helpful to new shooters and anyone looking for a new pistol.

Will
Chief instructor
WGT Consulting
training@wgtconsulting.com

With all due respect, I would like to hear what "good ergonomics" is supposed to look or feel like with a handgun? I agree that those with abnormally small hands and some with abnormally large hands may have minor issues with trigger reach and grip. That being said, its not the biggest issue and can be overcome with fundamentals. As I posted before, the vast majority of handgun owners in this country(and the USA) haven't a clue what the fundamentals are or how to apply them, and we have yet to hear anyone describe what "good ergonomics" are supposed to look and 'feel" like in a handgun. So what exactly would the novice with zero experience be looking for, and what would they know? The answer is the same for both questions, NOTHING. Ergonomics is a BS term used to describe and validate the "feel" of a firearm for those who don't know any better.

TDC most of what you write these days makes sense ( albeit repetitive) but the logic to this statement eludes me. If the guys have more trigger time on a 1911 than a Glock I would expect them not to be able to shoot the Glock as well. Too, if the Glock is a crappy pistol as you unintentionally suggest why would you be surprised to see shooters shooting an apparently better pistol..... better.

Personally I don't care for the Luger angle of the grip that Glocks have. It causes the gun to naturally point high or is it low? The few times I shoot a Glock always causes me to rethink the adjustment I have to make to bring the gun to target. You Glock users learn to do it automatically. I run either my GP-100 or a M&P/CZ most of the time so learning a Glock fundamental isn't necessary.

Glocks are great guns and when applied to their original intended use are outstanding at filling the need for a relatively inexpensive firearm for police and military units in their stock form. The gun was a game changer for Law Enforcement and their budgets. That said I don't buy my guns to kill people or to defend my life (who needs the legal bills and the jail time), I buy them for recreation, playing IDPA and IPSC. At my age I do alright with a body that is something less than new out of the box and no amount of training is going to offset the miles underneath my feet. So what I find interesting in your thinking is you apply your value systems to all others as if they are truisms that will out last the 10 Commandments.

Improving how a mechanical device works in order to use the device in an activity the gun was not designed for may have nothing to do with poor or good fundamentals either lacking or achieved. The cheap polymer sights on the Glock 17 work well enough in a police environment where accuracy standards are relatively low but high enough for the expected use the firearms are likely to encounter or what the taxpayers are prepared to fund. They work ok for shooting at tan targets for some but for others not so well and can be changed out without much expense. No crutch just an improvement in a mechanical device for a changed intended use. So to trigger springs and other sundry parts.

Lastly I marvel at what some here can achieve with their stock guns. I do so. primarily because I know I would never have been driven to achieve that skill level, assuming I had the physical attributes to allow it all to happen. That said, I used to golf with a 3 handicap and I doubt there is a poster on this thread who could claim the same....and it took a hell of a lot of work to get there I might add. My point being, anyone can achieve a peak level, for them, if they are driven to do so in any activity they choose. Few however, are inclined to do, or have the time or funds, so anything they feel will make the shooting experience more pleasant, including lightning their triggers or adding different sights may have nothing to do with the fundamentals of shooting,.... what ever they happen to be today. It may be because they can....and do.

From my experience, I have no doubt anyone who can make a Glock shoot well can shoot almost anything else... well.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

You're right, a lot of what I post is repetitive, but it seems to be necessary as many still don't get it.

I also agree that anyone who spends a lot of time with one specific platform will naturally perform to a higher level. That same shooter should be able to pick up any stock pistol and print respectable groups without issue if their fundamentals are sound.

Changing parts in an attempt to improve your abilities is only fooling yourself. I rarely run into a competent shooter who has changed the guts on their pistol. I do run into a lot of poor shooters who have invested small fortunes into aftermarket garbage and still can't shoot. Changing the stock sights is a common move and rightly so. They're poorly made and don't offer consistent sight pictures from gun to gun, its the nature of the cheap plastic stock sights. They are useable, but they are useless if you shoot low/no light. That being said, there is no place for target adjustable sights on a service pistol, its another gimmick that costs the uneducated a lot of money when they get sucked into them. Surprise surprise, many with target sights still can't shoot for sh*t either.

As for changing parts to make your shooting more enjoyable. Its a short lived gain that is again nothing but lying to yourself. Until you can shoot respectable and predictable groups on demand with a stock pistol, you will never see any appreciable gain from changing parts. It boils down to put in the (buzz word coming up) sweat equity to learn how to shoot. There is no magic bolt on device that will turn you into a super shooter. Time and effort, and it can be a slow go out of the gate but progress comes quickly when you stick with it.

TDC
 
I generally agree with TDC's comments on ergonomics; with the right attitude it's amazing what human beings can learn to adapt to. I'll openly admit to being a Glock fan (not fanboy) and say most people who don't like them, don't have a very good reason for not liking them. Grip angle, trigger, etc. can all be overcome with the right training and practice.

That said, if you've put honest effort into learning that particular firearm, you've given it a fair chance and there's still something that you absolutely can't get over, then maybe that firearm isn't for you; you can't develop if you don't want to practice.
 
I have to agree with TDC. I worked with a guy who straight away bought a 5000 dollar STI and would go to range with it. Sure enough he was shooting better than I was. Except he was only good with that gun, any time he picked up a different pistol he was crap. He still didn't have the fundamentals. When I picked up his gun a year later I could shoot much better than him and I'm not a great shot.
 
Hey TDC, what handguns/calibers do you shoot? Glock obviously, but any others?

I have shot most everything else, but I shoot Glocks in 9mm only, they do everything I need a pistol to do and I'm not interested in owning outdated designs, or complicated designs that offer no advantage.

TDC
 
TDC, buy a gen 3 or 4??? And why please.

All my glocks are Gen 3. I prefer to have all the same Gen to keep logisitics simple when it comes to parts. I also prefer the small mag release over the large release in the Gen4. You can't go wrong with either IMO.

Tdc
 
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TDC,
Do you just run 17s or do you have G19 or long slides too?
Bone stock, I assume? Night sights maybe? 115, 124 or 147 gr?
I run a stock gen 2 19. Only mod is Trijicons and Lone Wolf guide rod as the original plastic one bent after 25 years!

I run 17 and 26. Glock 19's were rare in a restricted format when I got into handguns and I saw no sigificant advantage over a 17 and near zero advantage over a 26.

My 17's all wear xs big dot tritium sights(as does the AA conversion kit). I'm not convinced the stock 17lbs recoil spring is adequate so I use a 20lbs spring which requires an aftermarket guide rod. Spring gets changed every 5k or annually. As for ammo I shoot whatever is cheap. I don't reload so price is the biggest concern. As for weight, it makes no difference they all shoot the same. The only difference I notice between weights is that 147gr tends to be a smoother "push" as opposed to the "snap" of 115 or 124gr with regards to recoil. Its a non issue but I can feel it.

Tdc
 
The 147 with the 17L are very accurate, could be du to the extra velocity it gain, not sure... TDC a question for you, did you ever shot a Les Baer 1911 Monolith... JP.
 
The 147 with the 17L are very accurate, could be du to the extra velocity it gain, not sure... TDC a question for you, did you ever shot a Les Baer 1911 Monolith... JP.

The velocity gain is near zero. I chrono'd a stock 26 with the 3" barrel and my 17 and there was a 30 fps difference.

I have not shot a Les baer but I have shot a kimber super match amongst most of their other offerings and various sti guns. Didn't notice anything other than scary light and short triggers. And the weight ;)

Tdc
 
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