Good $ value sxs shotgun brands?

leveractionjunkie

leveractionjunkie

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I've been page ing through the "show us your SxS shotgun" thread looking at all the beauties you guys have. It is a great resource, but there's almost too much info for my small brain lol. What I've been looking at are good $ value SxS's from yesteryear. Something that is well made and functional, and if it were made today would be expensive to make. But because of age, style, lack of choke tubes etc doesn't command top $.

Basically what I'm after are the brands and models to look out for so when they're come across and condition is acceptable I can purchase with confidence. Maybe there's reference books I'm unaware of?

What I'd like to end up with is a hunting SxS not a collectors piece. A grouse gun mainly, at least to start. 20ga ideally but I recognize 12 will be easier and cheaper to find. Open to other gauges. 26" barrels choked any which way they come. I like sk & sk2 for my grouse guns but recognize I will just have to shoot what the gun comes with or have chokes reamed.

I'd even be open to getting into and loading for Damascus barrelled guns if there are some solid options out there for them. I have a pw375C press with 12ga & 20ga die sets and love to tinker with loads.

Just kinda thought it'd be nice to build a catalogue of quality built brands of classic SxS maybe even with some pics. So a guy can quickly tell if they're solid or not when he finds them on ee or gunshows or garage sales.

Thanks for any help.
 
Every gun will still have to be evaluated individually for condition and function.
SKB 100 is good and light, look out for stock cracks.
AyA in modest models can be a bargain. There are other Spanish guns that are bargains, but the general advice is buy the individual gun, not so much the maker.
There are good Italian vintage guns that are bargains. I am fond of V. Bernardelli.
 
Everyone who has got into older SxS will have their own preferences, for whatever reason, as well as their own idea of what constitutes good value for the money. So I'm only speaking for myself. Please be aware you pay a premium for sub-gauges. I look for pre-WWII guns, really the period between 1890 and 1939....the Golden Age of hammerless SxS.

In sub-gauges, I would start by looking for a Fox Sterlingworth. As fine a handling SxS as can be found for under 10K, usually very solid barrels and likely thick enough barrel walls to withstand honing if some pitting needs to be removed. After that, I'd look for some pre WWII German or Austrian 16 gauges. Big names are Sauer or Simpson. Not as fond of Merkel but good guns. Best value in preWWII is typically Belgian. Pieper/Bayard made some very good gun but particularly with Belgian, you need to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

With European and English guns, buy the gun, not the name. That means learn enough to be able to judge if the particular gun you are thinking about is of a quality level/price that you are happy with. If you don't know, ask here with specific questions and photos of the particular gun.

IMHO re other American guns, Parkers are overpriced because there is too much collector interest and shooters get affected. Ithaca SxS are undervalued....stick with an NID. Remington 1894 and 1900 are good guns but you won't find sub gauges and it likely has a crack head of the stock. Forget LeFevers (too few and too collected) and it's probably just me but I can't get excited about LC Smiths.

Buying a post war gun, the previous advice about the SKB Ithaca's is very good. Stock cracks are most common in guns that haven't had the through bolt kept tight. Also look at Browning BSS.

If what you want is a good sub gauge SxS shooter that handles well and is on a scaled frame frame in decent condition expect to pay between $500 to $1500. Cheaper can be had but if you want a quality gun you will find cheaper is just a way-station on the way to where you are going.
 
leveractionjunkie said:
Basically what I'm after are the brands and models to look out for so when they're come across and condition is acceptable I can purchase with confidence. Maybe there's reference books I'm unaware of?

even with some pics. So a guy can quickly tell if they're solid or not when he finds them on ee or gunshows or garage sales.

Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...

A final thought.

You can do this with the American makes. Pretty simple. Parker, Fox, LeFever, Ithaca, LC Smith and Remington. There is reams of info on the different grade levels and what to looks for. In an oversimplification, each company made the same design of gun. They just built that design to different quality levels (grades) depending on how much it was going to sell for. Better wood, more engraving, more careful fit and finish of all the little pieces inside and out.

It's different on European and English guns. Literally 100's of makers, mostly small, turning out all levels of quality of gun. To acquire those guns effectively you need to actually learn what makes a good SxS and know it when you see it. Then you can buy with some level of confidence. You can't depend on the name brand as a guide. Sauer made some $hit price point crap after the war when it was controlled by the commies and it made some of the most exquisite firearms known to exist. And everything in between. All makers back then were like that.
 
Great stuff guys. Starting to form an idea of what to keep an eye out for. Aside from a lifelong love of upland bird guns this idea had kind of started with a Field&Stream piece where Phil Bourjaily, saves an SKB100 from being cut down for cowboy action shooting. So that was kind of the one maker I'd been keeping an eye out for. A Fox Sterlingworth or Parker would be awesome to find, although I suppose a guys not going to find many parkers in hunter condition for hunter $. I had thought the Fox would be out of reach as well, but there seems to be quite a few for sale down south so It's definitely on the radar.

Canvasback you make a great point about the american guns being much more thoroughly documented and very similar in design. This might make it easier to decide to go ahead and purchase if condition appears good vs one of the reams of smaller european makers. I understand your point on trying to go cheap as well, thats kind of why I have interest in older SXS's. To my thinking it seems possible to pay $700-1500 for a shotgun that would nowadays run $3500 or so. I may be out of line with thinking that, but i would rather spend $1000 on a hundred year old very well built SXS that $700-$1000 on a turkish delight :) In the long run i don't know if it'll be cheaper or not but a bit of quality and history go well together :)
 
I agree with Canvasback that pretty quickly one needs to be able to evaluate all aspects of a shotgun, design, fit and finish, to be able to sort the good from the not so good.
I disagree regarding most American vintage shotguns, which I find crudely fitted and awkward compared to modest British and Continental European guns. A middling Birmingham noname boxlock is superior in every respect, and a bargain if in good condition. Note that I am expressing a taste and preference, where others taste may differ.
 
There are so many guns from the past that meet your criteria that it would take a large volume binder to fill, especially if you also want to dive into damascus guns. As already mentioned, buy the particular gun, not the name and have said gun evaluated on an individual basis for originality, function and safety. Regarding North American made guns, don't forget about the Savage/Stevens model 311's or Fox model B's. Not everybody's idea of an elegant gun but they are fairly cheap, robust and like a timeex, they keep on ticking. They fit the budget for many looking for a low priced, reliable double barrel, especially for the first one.
 
leveractionjunkie said:
Canvasback you make a great point about the american guns being much more thoroughly documented and very similar in design. This might make it easier to decide to go ahead and purchase if condition appears good vs one of the reams of smaller european makers. I understand your point on trying to go cheap as well, thats kind of why I have interest in older SXS's. To my thinking it seems possible to pay $700-1500 for a shotgun that would nowadays run $3500 or so. I may be out of line with thinking that, but i would rather spend $1000 on a hundred year old very well built SXS that $700-$1000 on a turkish delight :) In the long run i don't know if it'll be cheaper or not but a bit of quality and history go well together :)
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Don't get carried away with that idea about American guns too much. LOL What I wasn't explicit about and what saskbooknut was (and I agree 100%) is that just about any British or Continental gun from that era will be superior in fit and finish to just about all American guns. You have to get into the grades of Parkers and Foxes that trade over 10K before you get the kind of careful handwork that most any Birmingham or Suhl gun will have.

But to your point about value for money vis a vis new guns. As an example, I'll mention four European guns I have, 2 sidelocks and 2 boxlocks. The most expensive one cost me $3500. The least expensive cost me $1200. Comparable guns, built new in 2017 would cost me at least $20,000 new and that's being conservative. Very conservative. Two of them I think would be well north of $50K. So yeah, I have to watch what ammo I use. And I can't change chokes.....damn, I just change guns! LOL But for me, I sure think it's worth it to be able to use guns of this quality when I'm out hunting.
 
A gun that gets little praise but is well built and a very good value if it fits you is the Czech ZP-49, ZP-47 etc. I have only seen them in 12 ga but some 16 ga guns are available. A true sidekick, with coil springs, built very solid but still well balanced and not too heavy. I really like my straight stocked 12 ga 28" IC/Mod for upland birds. Most however are F/M and have a pistol grip with cheekpiece.
 
Longwalker said:
A gun that gets little praise but is well built and a very good value if it fits you is the Czech ZP-49, ZP-47 etc. I have only seen them in 12 ga but some 16 ga guns are available. A true sidekick, with coil springs, built very solid but still well balanced and not too heavy. I really like my straight stocked 12 ga 28" IC/Mod for upland birds. Most however are F/M and have a pistol grip with cheekpiece.
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Yes, the Cz ZP 47's and 49's are very good guns for the money. Yes, they are available in 16 gauge. I have one but took a long time to find in this country. As you are maybe up for older guns, whether European, North American or whatever, have it evaluated properly. Some guns that may need a bit of work can turn out to be very nice guns that would cost an arm and a leg today. But buy accordingly. There are guns listed that are waaaaaay beyond what they are worth for the work needed. Just because a gun is old doesn't mean it's worth a fortune. There are many European boxlocks that can be had for very reasonable prices if the seller doesn't think he/she owns the moon.
 
Longwalker said:
A gun that gets little praise but is well built and a very good value if it fits you is the Czech ZP-49, ZP-47 etc. I have only seen them in 12 ga but some 16 ga guns are available. A true sidekick, with coil springs, built very solid but still well balanced and not too heavy. I really like my straight stocked 12 ga 28" IC/Mod for upland birds. Most however are F/M and have a pistol grip with cheekpiece.
Click to expand...

The Czech guns that Longwalker is talking about were made by BRNO. They used to be quite common in Canada; they were even sold by Canadian Tire. Don't hesitate to scoop one up. Another one to keep an eye out for are the SxS's that came out of the Miroku factory, regardless of whether or not they have the Browning BSS label.

Although I do most of my target shooting and bird hunting with SxS's and I read publications like Doublegun Journal, I can't afford to play in the fine gun league. So its guns like SKB's, BRNO's and 1960's-70's Spanish guns that let me play in the game :)
 
All of the above advice is excellent- and it jives with how my collection has grown. One thing I was suggest is getting to know what you like. Because at the end of the day (for me at least) vintage sxs guns are a passion, and hobby, a throw back to a time of gun making and hunting that I wasn't around during to experience and I can not afford to indulge in modern times.

People pick the sxs for many reasons; as a tool with a rapid follow up shot and the safety of a break action, or just as likely for their fit, or their form. Some people like the history or particular pedigree. Some people marvel at the engineering of pins and locks, action types and technological advances. Others desire fine wood. Or engraving. And some love the smell of BP and the nuances of 2 1/2 handloaded shells. (Some folks all of the above!)

At the end of the day, with all of the great advice from the wise folks above, pick a gun that you like. It might not be the most valuable in the long run, or even be the envy of your shooting partners, but if it is safe, fits and makes you want to get out and shoot, then it might be the one for you!

Tradeex often has some great value sxs options so if I were you I would keep an eye on them, the EE, and the gun shows, and be patient. The right shotgun is sure to come along.
 
Wow! That's a great comment RSCO and I completely forgot about it. Buy a gun(s) you like. For whatever reason, doesn't matter.
 
This is great stuff guys, all of it. Guess I miss interpreted the American gun comment, but I do like the Fox's and some of the L.C.'s too.

Good advice on finding the one you like, at the end of the day that's what matters most. I know I don't have the $ for a top name and condition gun. But a solid, reliable, lively, nice pointing gun with nice balance, swing and a bit of history would be perfect. Would add a little something to the experience each time I enter a favourite covert that mass produced modern guns can't always.

Can't believe I almost forgot about tradex! I used to check their site all the time.
 
Canvasback and RSCO have pretty much said just about all that needs to be said, but just to add onto the english gun comments...

English SxSs can be tedious sometimes...not so much in the mechanical aspect but just purely selecting a gun. As they said, it comes down to fit and style and what jives best with you but one seriously overlooked fact with a lot of english guns is chamber size and frame size. Many english guns have short chambers (compared to what is our standard over here) but this can be dealt with using the right ammo. Even if the chambers are long enough in the first place, usually our factory loadings are just too heavy for some of the dainty framed english 12 gauges that weigh barely 6 lbs. Cracked stocks are usually the result, long with a battered shoulder. Keep an eye out for proof marks (if it is new enough to have them) and note the max shot weight. I have seen some 12 bores that were only proofed at 1 oz with 2 1/2" chambers. Simply too light for even some factory 2 1/2".

I personally don't mind any of the nuances associated with these guns, (in I love them!) but anyone looking into english guns should be prepared; if you fall in love with a dainty little gun, be ready to handload!

These guns are greatly rewarding and can be real finds. Quality pieces made in the trade with some small shop name nobody knows, had for a bargain price just because it lacks a big name. Or even big names making quality pieces where the name is dismissed because they used more machine work in the manufacturing than the next guy:rolleyes:
 
Lots of good stuff here. I agree with most of these points. If you intend to use this gun successfully the fit and balance will need to suit you and your shooting style or easily and economically adjusted. In more modern ( post WWII) guns you won't go wrong with Ithaca/SKB, Browning BSS ( the twelves are quite heavy but the twenties are delightful) , Beretta, Bernardelli, Sauer, Merkel, Simson, mid to higher grade offerings from name brand Spanish makers and many small Italian makers. There are many unknown name guns out there, some good, some great, some junk. With these only experience will enable you to sort the wheat from the chaff. No matter the name on the gun or how pretty it is, original quality and current condition trump all other factors in selecting a good used gun at a fair price.
With pre war guns I agree that standard grade American guns are poor value, they were made as rugged tools like an axe or plow, they look pretty crude when placed alongside any standard grade British or European double and they are frequently stocked in a manner that is awkward to shoot well and accentuates recoil. Because of patriotic demand by our neighbours to the south they tend to be overpriced. Put any standard grade Parker or Fox beside any Birmingham boxlock and you can see the difference quickly. Pre war European guns are quite scarce because most were destroyed before or during the war, which leaves British guns, and here you're in luck. there are still lots of good English guns in Canada although every year more of the finer ones are finding their way south across the border. In the last 4-5 years prices on English doubles have surged in UK and in USA but selling prices in Canada have remained flat or slumped slightly and very good guns can be had for $1000-2000, at least in Western Canada. This won't last. I always have a couple of tables at the Chilliwack, Penticton and Kamloops gun shows with good sound doubles and there are always quite a few others at reasonable prices. Of course all old English doubles aren't gems, there are plenty that need work, sometimes they are worth refurbishing, sometimes not and this is where it gets tricky. To buy intelligently in this field you need to know how to evaluate these guns or you need to trust the seller. Some of these people are very knowledgeable, honest, have actually used their guns and can offer good advice. Others just want to sell a gun. Be polite but ask lots of questions, difficult questions, there is no such thing as a stupid question. You learn by asking questions. Good luck, Jim
 
Wow thanks for taking the time to respond with such helpful posts! I can see I'm only just scratching the surface of this new to me world. Couldn't be more excited. So many different makers styles and configurations and so much history as well.

Ashcroft I am scheduled to work the kamloops gun show but I hope to get a day off to attend. You mentioned that to be able to buy British guns intelligently a person needs to know how to evaluate these guns. Are there any pointers on this? General things to look for? I would assume a tight lockup, decent wood condition, top lever positioning, apparent bore condition, and overal finish would be a start?

Appreciate all the comments so far.
 
Well - Lets see:

- single trigger vs two triggers
- cast off vs cast on, LOP etc
- ejectors vs extractors
- english stock vs pistol grip
- 6 lb gun vs 7 1/2 lb gun


I understand that these are all functional considerations, but if you intend to shoot it regularly ... Finally, guns like the SKB's and Brno's have chrome plated bores - a nice feature for cleaning purposes, not so nice if you wish to have the chokes altered.
 
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