GPST Gets the Boot
- Thread starter surfwaxcdn
- Start date
- Status
Ok "Business men" lets looks at the numbers
100 GPST members and at $500 a person.. thats $50,000.
Rather then try and entice GPST to stay at the club, and get the GPST members to become Grange members.. Target Sport, gave them the unconditional boot, and said "Oh.. and if you feel like becomming members, after we just bent you over the barrel"
How many of the GPST members do you think are going to join? how many of those GPST members who ARE members of TS are going to stay members..
Doesn't take an MBA to see that this is a loosing business idea...
100 GPST members and at $500 a person.. thats $50,000.
Rather then try and entice GPST to stay at the club, and get the GPST members to become Grange members.. Target Sport, gave them the unconditional boot, and said "Oh.. and if you feel like becomming members, after we just bent you over the barrel"
How many of the GPST members do you think are going to join? how many of those GPST members who ARE members of TS are going to stay members..
Doesn't take an MBA to see that this is a loosing business idea...
I think you are all forgeting the BIG picture.
Look at the total cost of running a TSE style operation at the Gormley site.
The Range ... you need a quality air system .... $50,000 to rebuild
The Range ... you need to repair all target returns .. $5,000
The Range ... you need to "HEAT" it in the winter ... $18,000 per year
The Range ... you need to "CLEAN" it daily (employees) $20,000 per year.
The building ... you need to pay rent (current lease) $84,000 per year (approx)
The building ... you need to pay the taxes $11,000 per year
The building ... you need to maintain the grass $3,600 per year
The building ... you need to plow the snow $4,000 per year
The building ... you need to do maintenance $5,000 per year
The building ... you need to pay for hydro $15,000 per year
That is $160,600 per year to operate plus the $50,000 to get the air system.
Then you have the store....
It needs complete re-design $50,000
It needs stock $100,000
It needs people $100,000 per year to staff minimum.
It needs advertising (yellow pages, internet, radio $30,000 per year
It needs proper P.O.S. system $10,000
It needs security system $5,000
It needs customers .....................
That is $130,000 per year in staffing and advertising plus the refurb costs.
Since the Grange is a separate entity from the store and is required to be so (according to OPP), then the store charges the Grange rent at about 85% of the membership fee.
If we round the costs up to $300,000 a year, that is 600 members, but since the Grange keeps 15% of the fee for it's operations, then the business only sees $255K, so it needs to have 706 members to cover the costs.
The outside users of the range should be gravy. If they refurbed enough for a Health and Safety pass, they could have $250,000 a year in security training contracts and $50,000 in Corporate events.
I will say that the CFO has screwed them out of at least $100,000 a year in walk-in rentals with their post 2003 requirements.
Then the store obviously has to have sales high enough to cover it's inventory and Costs of Goods sold. Considering gun margins are 22 percent and accessories only about 50% margin, that's a whole lot of sales.
Oh, by the way, the highest membership at Gormley was only ever 1100 (1992 before the gun laws trashed everything) and 803 in 2003.
And by the way, I think somebody must consider a return on the investment??????
I hope to see a great success here but I just thought that the thread seekers here should KNOW what they are talking about, not just talk.
Not to thread hijack, but maybe they can design a store like P&D has. I just saw the pics and I am TOTALLY IMPRESSED
. Good for them.
Look at the total cost of running a TSE style operation at the Gormley site.
The Range ... you need a quality air system .... $50,000 to rebuild
The Range ... you need to repair all target returns .. $5,000
The Range ... you need to "HEAT" it in the winter ... $18,000 per year
The Range ... you need to "CLEAN" it daily (employees) $20,000 per year.
The building ... you need to pay rent (current lease) $84,000 per year (approx)
The building ... you need to pay the taxes $11,000 per year
The building ... you need to maintain the grass $3,600 per year
The building ... you need to plow the snow $4,000 per year
The building ... you need to do maintenance $5,000 per year
The building ... you need to pay for hydro $15,000 per year
That is $160,600 per year to operate plus the $50,000 to get the air system.
Then you have the store....
It needs complete re-design $50,000
It needs stock $100,000
It needs people $100,000 per year to staff minimum.
It needs advertising (yellow pages, internet, radio $30,000 per year
It needs proper P.O.S. system $10,000
It needs security system $5,000
It needs customers .....................
That is $130,000 per year in staffing and advertising plus the refurb costs.
Since the Grange is a separate entity from the store and is required to be so (according to OPP), then the store charges the Grange rent at about 85% of the membership fee.
If we round the costs up to $300,000 a year, that is 600 members, but since the Grange keeps 15% of the fee for it's operations, then the business only sees $255K, so it needs to have 706 members to cover the costs.
The outside users of the range should be gravy. If they refurbed enough for a Health and Safety pass, they could have $250,000 a year in security training contracts and $50,000 in Corporate events.
I will say that the CFO has screwed them out of at least $100,000 a year in walk-in rentals with their post 2003 requirements.
Then the store obviously has to have sales high enough to cover it's inventory and Costs of Goods sold. Considering gun margins are 22 percent and accessories only about 50% margin, that's a whole lot of sales.
Oh, by the way, the highest membership at Gormley was only ever 1100 (1992 before the gun laws trashed everything) and 803 in 2003.
And by the way, I think somebody must consider a return on the investment??????
I hope to see a great success here but I just thought that the thread seekers here should KNOW what they are talking about, not just talk.
Not to thread hijack, but maybe they can design a store like P&D has. I just saw the pics and I am TOTALLY IMPRESSED
. Good for them.
Last edited:
I don't know siht about IPSC but I've been in business for 40 yr. It would seem rather dumb for a new owner to bite the hand that feeds him as has happened in this case. To even take over a property without talking to stakeholders, then to 'boot out' prospective customers is outright stupid.
Also if this place needs 100's of thousands a yr. to operate wouldn't it be prudent to deal with people that are already there as opposed to 'booting them out' and attempting to replace them with higher paying clientel. Something is very wrong here. Mark
Also if this place needs 100's of thousands a yr. to operate wouldn't it be prudent to deal with people that are already there as opposed to 'booting them out' and attempting to replace them with higher paying clientel. Something is very wrong here. Mark
I think you are all forgeting the BIG picture.
Look at the total cost of running a TSE style operation at the Gormley site.
The Range ... you need a quality air system .... $50,000 to rebuild
The Range ... you need to repair all target returns .. $5,000
The Range ... you need to "HEAT" it in the winter ... $18,000 per year
The Range ... you need to "CLEAN" it daily (employees) $20,000 per year.
The building ... you need to pay rent (current lease) $84,000 per year (approx)
The building ... you need to pay the taxes $11,000 per year
The building ... you need to maintain the grass $3,600 per year
The building ... you need to plow the snow $4,000 per year
The building ... you need to do maintenance $5,000 per year
The building ... you need to pay for hydro $15,000 per year
That is $160,600 per year to operate plus the $50,000 to get the air system.
Then you have the store....
It needs complete re-design $50,000
It needs stock $100,000
It needs people $100,000 per year to staff minimum.
It needs advertising (yellow pages, internet, radio $30,000 per year
It needs proper P.O.S. system $10,000
It needs security system $5,000
It needs customers .....................
That is $130,000 per year in staffing and advertising plus the refurb costs.
Since the Grange is a separate entity from the store and is required to be so (according to OPP), then the store charges the Grange rent at about 85% of the membership fee.
If we round the costs up to $300,000 a year, that is 600 members, but since the Grange keeps 15% of the fee for it's operations, then the business only sees $255K, so it needs to have 706 members to cover the costs.
The outside users of the range should be gravy. If they refurbed enough for a Health and Safety pass, they could have $250,000 a year in security training contracts and $50,000 in Corporate events.
I will say that the CFO has screwed them out of at least $100,000 a year in walk-in rentals with their post 2003 requirements.
Then the store obviously has to have sales high enough to cover it's inventory and Costs of Goods sold. Considering gun margins are 22 percent and accessories only about 50% margin, that's a whole lot of sales.
Oh, by the way, the highest membership at Gormley was only ever 1100 (1992 before the gun laws trashed everything) and 803 in 2003.
And by the way, I think somebody must consider a return on the investment??????
I hope to see a great success here but I just thought that the thread seekers here should KNOW what they are talking about, not just talk.
Not to thread hijack, but maybe they can design a store like P&D has. I just saw the pics and an TOTALLY IMPRESSED
The Hangover match is ON and almost sold out.
Why must everyone try to spin something out of this? GPST will continue and so will Target Sports. In a few months we will know more about what is happening. I really hate all the speculators and the bashers that have posted here it serves no purpose and will not have any influence in the outcome.
I will do what I can to help the club that lets me shoot IPSC by constructive means. I like shooting with my pistols and not my mouth or keyboard. To the guys running the GPST you have my support. To the guys running the new Target Sports, I hope you will be successful.
I hope to see most of the members shooting at the Hangover match. Best of luck and go practice.
Why must everyone try to spin something out of this? GPST will continue and so will Target Sports. In a few months we will know more about what is happening. I really hate all the speculators and the bashers that have posted here it serves no purpose and will not have any influence in the outcome.
I will do what I can to help the club that lets me shoot IPSC by constructive means. I like shooting with my pistols and not my mouth or keyboard. To the guys running the GPST you have my support. To the guys running the new Target Sports, I hope you will be successful.
I hope to see most of the members shooting at the Hangover match. Best of luck and go practice.
- Location
- Blue-GTA, ON
Well after reading all of the comments I guess I have reacted to quickly to this situation. Like my old man always said, sleep on an issue before you do something about it.
That being said I just wish there was more information given so that speculation wouldn't have to occur.
I understand GPST will continue in some incarnation and will hopefully still include the same great group of people.
That being said I just wish there was more information given so that speculation wouldn't have to occur.
I understand GPST will continue in some incarnation and will hopefully still include the same great group of people.
All the more reason to try and keep the existing members you have, using the club already. Not piss off over 150+ shooters who you just kicked out of the club.
Who are we, as IPSC shooters to question what a business entity does? GPST will have to move. It has happened before when the entire IPSC league moved to Hallams in 1994.
Gmaneh and I were the founders of GPST. Neither of us are members now or care to be. It is the way with all things and all businesses. They are born, they live and they die. Sometimes, people even remember them.
For now, let's just leave them all alone and allow their business savy, fate and the environment determine the outcome.
Busta Capp
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Town of the Blue Mountains (ON)
Busta Capp
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Town of the Blue Mountains (ON)
GPST was designed to be independent of the range. It can move where it needs to, and it's members are pretty resourceful. I am sure it will land on it's feet.
I think rather than be upset about this, members should be glad that for so long they have received a cheap rate from USSR/TS. You cannot equate TS with other clubs, it is a business, and as such will make business decisions. As Rob pointed out, it ain't cheap to run that place.
Is it upsetting? Sure, but I am sure in due course the dust will settle, it will all work out.
I think rather than be upset about this, members should be glad that for so long they have received a cheap rate from USSR/TS. You cannot equate TS with other clubs, it is a business, and as such will make business decisions. As Rob pointed out, it ain't cheap to run that place.
Is it upsetting? Sure, but I am sure in due course the dust will settle, it will all work out.
Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
To be succesful, changes need to be made. The new club process will take a bit getting all the fun CFO approvals and rules like bylaws, constitution, range rules, etc... But it will be worth it in the end.
JR here…
I am not going to go on about the whole plan / picture for “Target Sports” here as some of the plans are still in flux as well under discussions with the various stakeholders.
As far as the financials of running the facility, Rob has done an excellent job (using 2003 data) to demonstrate the huge costs to run a facility. However, even his numbers are low.
Again, I’m not going to present the specifics of the plans, but suffice to say, we were not asked to come in and help the current owner because he felt like spending money. We were brought in because the situation was critical. If we didn’t step in and (after analyzing the business) we don’t take significant actions, there will be no facility for ANYONE to use. I will be making a presentation at the Grange AGM on January 19th so if you are a memebr of the Grange, please make note on your calander.
After a careful evaluation of the business and a few financial models, it was easy to see that while there are a lot of users enjoying the facility, very few were paying the appropriate fees. I am not even talking about paying enough to cover the costs of basic operations let alone any improvements.
However, I’ve just read through this thread and would like to take the time here to respond specifically on the IPSC / GPST issues raised.
But before I can begin;
To clarify the situation, we have to all be using the same terminology to describe the various stakeholders and users:
1) Target Sports: The business! This is the corporate body that is responsible to operate and manage the facility. This is also the business that operates the pro shop. It is also the organization that coordinates all activities held within its walls.
2) The Clubs: These are the registered non-profit organizations that answer to the provincial CFO concerning the individual participants. In Ontario, these groups are also responsible to submit the ATT applications, again, on behalf of the individual. Currently there are about 7 that use Target Sports as their “home” facility. GPST is NOT one of these. The home club of the Target Sports facility currently is “The Grange”.
3) Groups: These are various independent organizations that tend to represent specific disciplines, but operate outside of an official club structure. This is where GPST falls. Their ATTs are issued from their home club which may or may not be “The Grange”
4) Leagues: These are specific shooting discipline groups that operate under an official club umbrella.
Now…
There are a number of factors at play here and yes, it is also obvious to me that businesses must / need to operate differently in response to the realities of the area in which it operates. However, going broke is going broke regardless of the business language you speak.
Currently there is NO incentive for anyone to join the Grange club. All of these other groups get almost free access, pay almost nothing and can walk away with no ill effects whatsoever.
What we are trying to accomplish here, is to get ALL users to pay the appropriate amount and not disadvantage the members of the Grange.
We are NOT kicking out IPSC. I am very pro-shooting, regardless of the discipline. I think I have done an excellent job of putting my money where my mouth is on this one. If it “goes bang” and is legal and allowed by the CFO for you to shoot it in our facility, there we welcome you with open arms.
However, I also strongly believe that “MEMBERSHIP HAS PRIVILEGES” and a privilege of having a membership is to have maximum availability of the facility. Another bonus should be the ability to have the maximum time available to practice your sport and to have a facility open when you have the time to utilize it. This facility should also be maintained properly so that when you show up to use it, it should not only be operational, but comfortable and of course SAFE. This philosophy translates to any business model that provides a facility service, such as a golf club or a sports centre.
So in order to fulfill this mandate, we need to make some changes. Changes will always bring criticism. But in this case, I think the changes are not only good, but necessary to preserve the facility
Change 1:
The facility can only have ONE club. However, this club can have as many leagues as the members want. Currently in Calgary, our club has a DPL league and an IPSC league. They operate on different nights and as far as I know, a number of the same guys participate in both leagues. As GPST is not a “club” this change does not apply to them.
Change 2:
All leagues run at Target through the Grange will be limited to participation to members only. This does not mean that a league cannot “host” a sanctioned match or competition. It just means that these activities would have to be coordinated through Target Sports and Target Sports would have the final say on availability. As it currently stands I Calgary, our facility hosts two IPSC matches every year. There are open to ANYONE that IPSC Alberta allows to participate. However, we do get separate payment for these activities… Again, every little bit helps to pay for the facility.
But to clarify:
Groups can still commercially book a bay for either a half day or a full day. However the rates to do so are increasing dramatically as of January 1st, 2008. GPST always had and still has this option.
I have met with the GPST rep and I have stated numerous times, I am more than willing to discuss this and to try to accommodate. However, from a business model, I need more revenue for the space.
In my mind, the biggest sticking point in regards to IPSC is that (according to Mr. D.L., the IPSC rep of whom I spoke to about this), it is an IPSC Ontario rule (which I know nothing about as I am not an IPSC guy) which according to Mr. D.L. stated repeatedly, that “All IPSC activities must be open to ANY and ALL IPSC members”. So according to Mr. D.L., even if we wanted to run an IPSC league though the Grange, we couldn’t because it is restricted to Grange members only.
I personally think this will work itself out. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear in our meeting or I was misinterpreted. Regardless, if anyone wishes to “discuss” this further with me, I am more than happy to hear both the positives and the negatives.
JR
I am not going to go on about the whole plan / picture for “Target Sports” here as some of the plans are still in flux as well under discussions with the various stakeholders.
As far as the financials of running the facility, Rob has done an excellent job (using 2003 data) to demonstrate the huge costs to run a facility. However, even his numbers are low.
Again, I’m not going to present the specifics of the plans, but suffice to say, we were not asked to come in and help the current owner because he felt like spending money. We were brought in because the situation was critical. If we didn’t step in and (after analyzing the business) we don’t take significant actions, there will be no facility for ANYONE to use. I will be making a presentation at the Grange AGM on January 19th so if you are a memebr of the Grange, please make note on your calander.
After a careful evaluation of the business and a few financial models, it was easy to see that while there are a lot of users enjoying the facility, very few were paying the appropriate fees. I am not even talking about paying enough to cover the costs of basic operations let alone any improvements.
However, I’ve just read through this thread and would like to take the time here to respond specifically on the IPSC / GPST issues raised.
But before I can begin;
To clarify the situation, we have to all be using the same terminology to describe the various stakeholders and users:
1) Target Sports: The business! This is the corporate body that is responsible to operate and manage the facility. This is also the business that operates the pro shop. It is also the organization that coordinates all activities held within its walls.
2) The Clubs: These are the registered non-profit organizations that answer to the provincial CFO concerning the individual participants. In Ontario, these groups are also responsible to submit the ATT applications, again, on behalf of the individual. Currently there are about 7 that use Target Sports as their “home” facility. GPST is NOT one of these. The home club of the Target Sports facility currently is “The Grange”.
3) Groups: These are various independent organizations that tend to represent specific disciplines, but operate outside of an official club structure. This is where GPST falls. Their ATTs are issued from their home club which may or may not be “The Grange”
4) Leagues: These are specific shooting discipline groups that operate under an official club umbrella.
Now…
There are a number of factors at play here and yes, it is also obvious to me that businesses must / need to operate differently in response to the realities of the area in which it operates. However, going broke is going broke regardless of the business language you speak.
Currently there is NO incentive for anyone to join the Grange club. All of these other groups get almost free access, pay almost nothing and can walk away with no ill effects whatsoever.
What we are trying to accomplish here, is to get ALL users to pay the appropriate amount and not disadvantage the members of the Grange.
We are NOT kicking out IPSC. I am very pro-shooting, regardless of the discipline. I think I have done an excellent job of putting my money where my mouth is on this one. If it “goes bang” and is legal and allowed by the CFO for you to shoot it in our facility, there we welcome you with open arms.
However, I also strongly believe that “MEMBERSHIP HAS PRIVILEGES” and a privilege of having a membership is to have maximum availability of the facility. Another bonus should be the ability to have the maximum time available to practice your sport and to have a facility open when you have the time to utilize it. This facility should also be maintained properly so that when you show up to use it, it should not only be operational, but comfortable and of course SAFE. This philosophy translates to any business model that provides a facility service, such as a golf club or a sports centre.
So in order to fulfill this mandate, we need to make some changes. Changes will always bring criticism. But in this case, I think the changes are not only good, but necessary to preserve the facility
Change 1:
The facility can only have ONE club. However, this club can have as many leagues as the members want. Currently in Calgary, our club has a DPL league and an IPSC league. They operate on different nights and as far as I know, a number of the same guys participate in both leagues. As GPST is not a “club” this change does not apply to them.
Change 2:
All leagues run at Target through the Grange will be limited to participation to members only. This does not mean that a league cannot “host” a sanctioned match or competition. It just means that these activities would have to be coordinated through Target Sports and Target Sports would have the final say on availability. As it currently stands I Calgary, our facility hosts two IPSC matches every year. There are open to ANYONE that IPSC Alberta allows to participate. However, we do get separate payment for these activities… Again, every little bit helps to pay for the facility.
But to clarify:
Groups can still commercially book a bay for either a half day or a full day. However the rates to do so are increasing dramatically as of January 1st, 2008. GPST always had and still has this option.
I have met with the GPST rep and I have stated numerous times, I am more than willing to discuss this and to try to accommodate. However, from a business model, I need more revenue for the space.
In my mind, the biggest sticking point in regards to IPSC is that (according to Mr. D.L., the IPSC rep of whom I spoke to about this), it is an IPSC Ontario rule (which I know nothing about as I am not an IPSC guy) which according to Mr. D.L. stated repeatedly, that “All IPSC activities must be open to ANY and ALL IPSC members”. So according to Mr. D.L., even if we wanted to run an IPSC league though the Grange, we couldn’t because it is restricted to Grange members only.
I personally think this will work itself out. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear in our meeting or I was misinterpreted. Regardless, if anyone wishes to “discuss” this further with me, I am more than happy to hear both the positives and the negatives.
JR
No one is getting rid of "The Grange".
I have had VERY successful meetings with the current executives. In my opinion, they are ALL very stand-up people.
Both Target and the Execs have stayed focused on keeping the membership looked after.
Changes need to be made, but as far as I am concerned, only for the better.
Again, I will be presenting all of this at the AGM on Jan 19th.
JR
I'm sure everyone is trying to say the same thing...but I'll offer an official clarifiction. It can get a little confusing.
Any Matches Sanctioned by IPSC, and that would include the Level 1 and Level 2 matches that are sactioned by IPSC Ontario as well as the Level 3 and higher matches that are santioned by the International Sanctioning committee...must be open to all IPSC members (IPSC Ont, IPSC Canada IPSC anywhere) This has nothing to do with League Activities.
Now regarding Club Level or League Activities...frankly we don't care. The range or League or Club are free to run these club level activities under thier own rules. Because these are not IPSC Sanctioned Activities...our rules do not apply.
Hope this helps
Regards
Craig Stoklosar
IPSC Ontario
- Location
- Blue-GTA, ON
Thank you for taking the time to post this response. I think it will answer a lot of the questions the GPST members had coming out of Wed. night.
- Status
