Grizzleys in Sheep Country
- Thread starter mackillan
- Start date
- Location
- Dah Soo,ON
Man, people didn't hunt before WSM's and RUM's. It's all lies don't you get it? Do you actually think you can kill something with a .308? Pfff.
I know, it's sad. the interweb told me so too. animals grow an extra 1" of kevlar under their skin every 5yrs. its evolution! thats why WSM's RUM's etc were created. It's not a marketing gimmik! the gun companies want us to feel safe!
Its just that alot of those alaskans did and still choose a handy Win 94 in .30-.30 for overall use. Its a caliber and carbine that the wife as well as the kids can shoot properly and efficiently. I was definitley surprised by the amount of Alaskans that choose it as there go to carry weapon.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The lever action carbines are probably nicer to carry than any other rifle I can think of, and that has more to do with their popularity than the cartridge they are chambered for. The more difficult the country, the greater the distance one travels on foot, the more important it is to have a compact light rifle. Any gun in a dangerous bear encounter is better than no gun, and a rifle that doesn't fatigue you after hours on the trail will be quicker to get into action than a 10 pound bolt gun with a 26" barrel.
Having said that, there is a difference between a hunting rifle and a protection rifle. Just because you can kill an unsuspecting bear with a .30/30 doesn't make it an appropriate cartridge for protection against what is arguably North America's most dangerous game. The old boys who elect to carry a .30/30 in the Alaskan back country, probably have a lifetime of bear experience that keeps them out of trouble. The once a year hunter might not. I seriously doubt that those Alaskan's would choose to pack their thutty-thutty's when they are crawling along the grass tunnels on Kodiak or Admiralty.
If we think about what happens when a big game animal is shot, surely it must give us pause to consider what might happen in a dangerous bear encounter. When you shoot a deer, how often do you get a bang flop? I'm, not talking about a one shot kill here, but where the deer drops like you pulled the rug out form under it. Not that often I'll bet. A bear, particularly a large species of bear, has bigger bones and denser muscle for the bullet to overcome. In a defensive shooting scenario, the bear will not be broadside, he will not be quartering, he will be head on. If you shoot a bear that's 20' away, and he is not killed, disabled, or turned immediately, you best be prepared to get whupped! The idea that you should intentionally seek out this confrontation with a mouse gun is laughable. The surest way of stopping this guy is to break a big bone. You don't have time to get fancy with a precision shot. If you haven't solved the problem in 2 seconds, you will not solve it. Lets consider the head shot for a moment. A big bear's head is huge and massive. That certainly doesn't make it bullet proof, but it does make bullet placement difficult. The brain is only as wide as the snout, and the bullet must strike behind the eyes and ahead of the ears. That's tricky shooting on a moving animal, and a bear's head is often in motion, different than his forward progression. You've got one chance to save your life, if you wait for a head shot, your chances are diminished, and things are already going wrong.
Those of us here who make part of our income from bear security prefer to carry powerful rifles, but the choice of rifle must be within the experience and limitation of the shooter. I have every confidence that my wife can protect herself with her .30/06, and I won't even allow her to shoot my .375. We were shooting one day last summer and from 5 yards she repeatedly snap shot 5 rounds into an inch, the longest time from signal to shot was about 2 seconds, the fastest was very fast, but I would guess about a second. I load her ammo, I make sure every round she carries will function in her rifle, and I choose a tough bullet, in her case a 180 gr TSX. I would have preferred the 240 gr Woodleighs, but those long torpedoes won't stabilize in her 1:12 barrel. I am confident that the 180 gr TSX at 2550 from her 21" barrel will survive a frontal shot on the biggest bear, and typically the trouble makers are adolescents.
To hunt in bear country and disregard the possibility of a dangerous bear encounter is unwise. To not be alert for bear sign or evidence of bear activity is unwise. To carry a mouse gun when you have other options is likewise - unwise.
Having said that, there is a difference between a hunting rifle and a protection rifle. Just because you can kill an unsuspecting bear with a .30/30 doesn't make it an appropriate cartridge for protection against what is arguably North America's most dangerous game. The old boys who elect to carry a .30/30 in the Alaskan back country, probably have a lifetime of bear experience that keeps them out of trouble. The once a year hunter might not. I seriously doubt that those Alaskan's would choose to pack their thutty-thutty's when they are crawling along the grass tunnels on Kodiak or Admiralty.
If we think about what happens when a big game animal is shot, surely it must give us pause to consider what might happen in a dangerous bear encounter. When you shoot a deer, how often do you get a bang flop? I'm, not talking about a one shot kill here, but where the deer drops like you pulled the rug out form under it. Not that often I'll bet. A bear, particularly a large species of bear, has bigger bones and denser muscle for the bullet to overcome. In a defensive shooting scenario, the bear will not be broadside, he will not be quartering, he will be head on. If you shoot a bear that's 20' away, and he is not killed, disabled, or turned immediately, you best be prepared to get whupped! The idea that you should intentionally seek out this confrontation with a mouse gun is laughable. The surest way of stopping this guy is to break a big bone. You don't have time to get fancy with a precision shot. If you haven't solved the problem in 2 seconds, you will not solve it. Lets consider the head shot for a moment. A big bear's head is huge and massive. That certainly doesn't make it bullet proof, but it does make bullet placement difficult. The brain is only as wide as the snout, and the bullet must strike behind the eyes and ahead of the ears. That's tricky shooting on a moving animal, and a bear's head is often in motion, different than his forward progression. You've got one chance to save your life, if you wait for a head shot, your chances are diminished, and things are already going wrong.
Those of us here who make part of our income from bear security prefer to carry powerful rifles, but the choice of rifle must be within the experience and limitation of the shooter. I have every confidence that my wife can protect herself with her .30/06, and I won't even allow her to shoot my .375. We were shooting one day last summer and from 5 yards she repeatedly snap shot 5 rounds into an inch, the longest time from signal to shot was about 2 seconds, the fastest was very fast, but I would guess about a second. I load her ammo, I make sure every round she carries will function in her rifle, and I choose a tough bullet, in her case a 180 gr TSX. I would have preferred the 240 gr Woodleighs, but those long torpedoes won't stabilize in her 1:12 barrel. I am confident that the 180 gr TSX at 2550 from her 21" barrel will survive a frontal shot on the biggest bear, and typically the trouble makers are adolescents.
To hunt in bear country and disregard the possibility of a dangerous bear encounter is unwise. To not be alert for bear sign or evidence of bear activity is unwise. To carry a mouse gun when you have other options is likewise - unwise.
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Obviously in your mind, but your opinions are meaningless in my world - just as mine are meaningless in yours. However there are people here without any real life experience that sit in front of their computers and shiver everytime some gobbldygook is written about the north American "man eaters" and they lap it up like mothers milk. The truth of the matter is there are more people who survive hunting and fishing alongside the "man eaters" their whole lives without packing a big gun than those that do pack one. If packing a big gun makes you feel safe then hell I say go for it, but I don't think that gives you the right to judge others who don't need a big gun to feel safe. They also have the right to chose. I never pack a gun in bear country unless it is hunting season, after thousands and thousands of attack free days why bother to pack the extra weight?
There isn't a heck of a lot of proof that people died because they weren't packing a 375, but there is a lot of proof that they never got a shot off or missed their one shot in the hand full of bear deaths that have occur ed.
A thousand times the number of people die driving to go hunting every year than from bear attacks, if bigger is better then maybe they should have all been driving semis and been safer?
No, I think competency far out weighs size and to read your posts you are probably more competent than most on here, but what makes you think that something that works for your skill level is going to work for the average guy? Face it the last thing anyone would recommend is for a newbie to buy a 375, heck you won't let your wife shoot yours! There are lesser calibers that will protect you just in fine the woods.
I'm seeing many that have opinions here that will not accept the responses of those that are actually in grizzly/polar bear country for most of the year and keep commenting that a little gun can do it or why even take one.
No one is arguing that little guns can't do the job we're saying use the gun that you feel most comfortable with which is why there are so many different choices out there.
Myself I don't always take a rifle but 95% of the time I have my modified 4.25" barreled Ruger SRH 454 Casull loaded with 405gr WLNGC's @ 1330fps with me so I'm not packing the extra weight of a rifle or shotgun but we are not talking in this thread about hiking of fishing we are talking about what rifle to take on a sheep hunt that can double as a bear stopping gun.
Me I can shoot and carry my 375 RUM as easily as I can my 280 Rem that weighs at the most 1 lbs less so when I am in extreme remote areas here in BC where we actually have healthy numbers of grizzlies I will pack a rifle that will get the job done for me.
Boomer once again an excellent post...
No one is arguing that little guns can't do the job we're saying use the gun that you feel most comfortable with which is why there are so many different choices out there.
Myself I don't always take a rifle but 95% of the time I have my modified 4.25" barreled Ruger SRH 454 Casull loaded with 405gr WLNGC's @ 1330fps with me so I'm not packing the extra weight of a rifle or shotgun but we are not talking in this thread about hiking of fishing we are talking about what rifle to take on a sheep hunt that can double as a bear stopping gun.
Me I can shoot and carry my 375 RUM as easily as I can my 280 Rem that weighs at the most 1 lbs less so when I am in extreme remote areas here in BC where we actually have healthy numbers of grizzlies I will pack a rifle that will get the job done for me.
Boomer once again an excellent post...
Very well said Boomer!
I can't agree more on what you said and as the matter of fact my wife did shoot my Brno .375 at the range and she can put 3 bullet into a cluster just under an inch at 100 yards and two were touching, a lot of the people will surprise how well most lady can shoot.
Omega has his point about the weight of the rifle and I have to admit that a rigged 375 rifle weight well over 10 pounds hauling it around trail , bush is not fun at all but I would still do it in case I encounter trouble with bears that might threaten my life or my love one.
I don't know about others but to those who have shot the 375 (scoped magazine loaded) the recoil is really not much more than firing a 12 gauge slug in a light shotgun!!?
To those never fire a 375 I would suggest try your friend's rifle out and don't listen to those saying that "after firing that ### caliber my shoulder hurts for one week blah blah blah" because if you can handle a 12 gauge slug you will surprise firing the 375 is not that unpleasant.
And yes, I am a magnum caliber supporter I don't mind the recoil 150gr 300wm is my deer caliber and I am pretty sure many of you out there using 30-06 as an all round rifle,right?
I am sure many will say why you need 300wm for deer my 30-06 is as deadly and less recoil but what's the different if you and I are both shooting 150 gr bullet while your's at around 2900ft/s leaving the muzzle vs mine @ about 3200?
My point is it doesn't makes me look macho with a magnum or powerful caliber but I can get the job done better / cleaner and humanely.
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You know of course that I live and work in grizzly country, lots of people do there is nothing unique about that. Just because I don't have an irrational fear of the bear and feel the need to pack a gun doesn't make my choice or opinion any less valuable than anyone else's, beside I've stood the test of time on this one, I'm still here annoying the hell out of you by disagreeing. LOL!! To you, your ideas on what to carry in the woods sounds reasonable and sensible, to me it sounds like the ramblings of a paranoid who believes there is a bear behind every tree waiting to get him. So am I going to take your posts seriously? Certainly not on this subject!
It makes no difference to me what you choose, if you need it to make you feel secure, you need it, pretty simple. Others may need less, everyones milage varies.You and I are never going to see eye to eye on this subject, you think I'm crazy and I get a lot of entertainment out of your posts and that is the beauty of the Internet!
i've got to go cut some firewood, you have a good day.
best answer I've seen all day!
Alberta has grizzly country?
Ok so I don't get in to much trouble yeah yeah you guys have a few...
I guess that is why you don't have to concern yourselves to much about them...
Yeah, AB has some griz. I've seen a few in the wild, mostly at a distance. I backed away from one at 30 yards when he stood up from buckbrush, and me carrying 60 lbs of fresh boned out meat strapped to my back... i was happy he decided to leave without an argument. That's my only scarey story with a grizzly.
I don't even personally know anyone who got et by a griz. I imagine you BC boys have all had close calls, or at least one of you did and the rest read about it on the internet - just kidding, really.
I personally like rifles that shoot big heavy bullets. I don't care what anyone else uses, so long as they're not shooting at me.
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Camp Cook, no need to include me. I used to work at a coal mine along the forestry trunk road 100kms south of Edson. Hunted tons in that area. Even shared my lunch with the odd momma grizz and cubs at the coal mine. Saw bears while flyfishing and while hunting. Some days i had a Guidegun some days i had a .30-.30 When i walked around a corner of a trail one day and saw one 20 yards from me and it stood up on its two hind legs and gave a sniff and ran off i new i was going to be okay as it was more of a curiousness than agressivness it was showing. I am positive if it was any other hunter, said hunter may have thought that as an act of agression and put it down. I am glad it was me that it came across and no one else as it lived another day as i am far from fearful but have the upmost respect. With that being said, i did have my Marlin .444 "locked on" during that event.
I would have felt just as comfortable with my .30-.30 or .32 win Special for that matter.
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Took almost 12 years in one of the most concentrated Brown bear areas in NA, & rubbing his nose in it before Treadwell finally got eaten.
I'd wager for the occasional hunting trip into bear country the odds are certainly in one's favour to come out uneaten.
Now add abit of Bear awareness and one's odds get even better !
FWIW if anyone can show me just one example of a Hunter in NA being Killed by a Bear simply because he didn't have "enough" gun I'd like to see it.
Fact is most Bear maulings the person was either unarmed or simply didn't even get a shot off........If your Job dictates you to be tangling with bears on a regular basis (guides etc.) then obviously you will carry some protection suited to that specific task.
But advising a Sheep Hunter to carry a Ginormous Magnum because there "may" be bears in the area is kinda silly don't ya think ?
Take what is suited to to your tasks......worry about the Bear when and certainly "if" the time comes. I'll bet calibre choice fast becomes a moot point !
I'd wager for the occasional hunting trip into bear country the odds are certainly in one's favour to come out uneaten.
Now add abit of Bear awareness and one's odds get even better !
FWIW if anyone can show me just one example of a Hunter in NA being Killed by a Bear simply because he didn't have "enough" gun I'd like to see it.
Fact is most Bear maulings the person was either unarmed or simply didn't even get a shot off........If your Job dictates you to be tangling with bears on a regular basis (guides etc.) then obviously you will carry some protection suited to that specific task.
But advising a Sheep Hunter to carry a Ginormous Magnum because there "may" be bears in the area is kinda silly don't ya think ?
Take what is suited to to your tasks......worry about the Bear when and certainly "if" the time comes. I'll bet calibre choice fast becomes a moot point !
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Just for the record, I don't consider a .375 bore rifle a big gun, yet you use the term "big gun" several times in your post. Clearly the difference between a small gun and a big gun is arbitrary in nature, and is only a useful measure based on the speaker's experience. I have a friend here who has killed more game than I've ever seen and after looking at one of my rifles said he didn't like big guns much. That rifle was a .30/06.
I could do very well with many cartridges, but I like the .30/06 and I like the .375 bore in various flavors. My .375 while powerful is a good general purpose big game rifle, as was my attention when I had it built. I do not advocate that anyone uses a rifle with more recoil than they are competent to handle, but the .30/30 should clearly be out of the equation of any discussion involving the big bears. This was the point of my comment about mouse guns.
With respect to the likely hood of coming in contact with a dangerous bear, that has to do with the amount of exposure you have to a given population of bears. It took years of close contact with grizzlies for Treadwell to meet a bear grouchy enough to kill him, though not to be dissuaded, he patiently waited till it happened. The thing is, you don't know if that meeting with a dangerous bear is going to be on the first or the 10,000th encounter. I believe there are two kinds of dangerous bears. Like people, there are some bears that are just born dangerous. These guys are rarities, and based on discussions I've had with very knowledgeable people, the occurrence is perhaps 1 per 2000. The other type of dangerous bear is the bear who becomes dangerous by accident. Perhaps you surprised him, perhaps you unexpectedly got inside his personal space, perhaps you got too close to his food stash, perhaps he broke into your cabin or tent because he was previously rewarded by that behavior due to someone else's carelessness. Perhaps he has been injured and cannot acquire a natural food supply, or was just grouchy as a result of being in pain. The point is that on any given day, any given bear might be provoked into dangerous or threatening behavior.
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I am not leaving the house anymore I might get eaten by a bear Seriously some of you guys put way too much thought into this bear defense stuff. When in the bush use your common sense and be aware of your environment. Its no different if your moose hunting or sheep hunting or just going for a hike with the family your primary defense is and should be awareness of your environment. I wouldn't carry a 10lbs 375 sheep hunting because I might run into a bear but if I was hunting bears I would carry a 10lbs 375
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