Grizzly bullet for 30-06
- Thread starter todbartell
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I prefer bullets, which are heavy for caliber. There is no doubt in my mind that a 180 gr TSX from a .30/06 will harvest a grizzly. Still, when hunting grizzly, there is always the chance that you might have to go and collect him from the middle of a stand of willows. Under these circumstances, if the '06 is the only hunting rifle available, there might be a better choice than the 180 gr mono-metal bullet.
After testing various X bullets, I am of the opinion that neither wound volume no penetration would increase by moving to the 200 gr TSX from the 180. I believe there might be an advantage to go to a heavy lead core bullet of either 220 or 240 grs.
The first thing we need to consider is velocity. A .30/06 will drive a 180 gr bullet in excess of 2800 fps, with the appropriate load. The advantage of the 220- - 240 gr bullets is that you can duplicate or exceed the wound volume of the 180 gr bullet at lower velocity. Lower velocity means the bullet is less prone to failure when heavy bones and dense tissue is encountered, in the case of a very big bear, these bones and tissue will be heavier and denser than what is found on a moose. The larger the mushroom created by the upset of the bullet means the more weight is moved to the nose of the bullet. The additional weight at the nose reduces the likelihood of a bullet bending or tumbling, and ensures straight-line penetration. Wound volume is proportional to the frontal area of the bullet, and the increased mass of the heavier bullet ensures full penetration.
If you snipe the bear from 200 yards with a TSX and it runs into the willows, a heavy lead core bullet - preferably bonded would be very reassuring on the follow up.
After testing various X bullets, I am of the opinion that neither wound volume no penetration would increase by moving to the 200 gr TSX from the 180. I believe there might be an advantage to go to a heavy lead core bullet of either 220 or 240 grs.
The first thing we need to consider is velocity. A .30/06 will drive a 180 gr bullet in excess of 2800 fps, with the appropriate load. The advantage of the 220- - 240 gr bullets is that you can duplicate or exceed the wound volume of the 180 gr bullet at lower velocity. Lower velocity means the bullet is less prone to failure when heavy bones and dense tissue is encountered, in the case of a very big bear, these bones and tissue will be heavier and denser than what is found on a moose. The larger the mushroom created by the upset of the bullet means the more weight is moved to the nose of the bullet. The additional weight at the nose reduces the likelihood of a bullet bending or tumbling, and ensures straight-line penetration. Wound volume is proportional to the frontal area of the bullet, and the increased mass of the heavier bullet ensures full penetration.
If you snipe the bear from 200 yards with a TSX and it runs into the willows, a heavy lead core bullet - preferably bonded would be very reassuring on the follow up.
There are some flaws in your argument.A monometal bullet like the tsx will generally retain a much higher percentage of weight than a lead core bullet.For example,after weighing several recovered bullets the tsx usually retains at least 90% of it's weight while even the partition usually retains about 65% of it's weight.In other words the 180gr tsx would retain about 162gr while the 220gr partition would retain about 143gr.The advantage in this case actually goes to the tsx.One also needs to keep in mind that conventional lead core bullets normally shed an even higher percentage of their weight than a partition.As to the likelyhood of failure when striking bone,I recovered a 180gr tsx after it passed through a long section of elk spine.Even after destroying this much bone,and expanding to .800",it still retained over 160gr.And that was at an impact velocity of over 2900fps after being launched out of my 300ultramag at 3380fps.If the 180gr tsx held together after this ordeal,how likely is it to fail when fired from a 30-06?.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
stubblejumper said:
Here is a picture from a test I conducted to determine which bullet type would be superior as a close range stopper.
The 270 gr XLC was measured at 2800, the 300 gr X was measured at 2600, and the 380 gr lead core bullet was measured at 2300. Both X bullets created similar wound volumes, and retained about 75% or their original weight. The petals broke off, which reduced the wound volume, and resulted in a major percentage of the lost weight The 380 retained 95% of it's original weight, expanded to nearly 1", and the wound volume could only be estimated because it tore apart the containers holding the testing material, but the volume was easily 3X that of the X's.
A close look at the pic will show that the shank of the 300 gr X has bent, and this I believe is the achilles heals of the X's, expansion does not extend far enough along the shank, and the shank is susceptible to bending. Once bent, straight line penetration is in question, as the bullet will try to turn to follow the bend.
I agree your observations of traditional lead core bullet designs are accurate, but I believe I have demonstrated that a well designed lead core bonded bullet - like those bullets sold by Wildcat Bullets off superior performance to the mono-metal expanding bullet.
I should add that the penetration of all 3 bullets in my test was dead even at 32"
- Location
- South Cariboo, BC
I wonder how the comparison would have gone if they all hit the media at the same speed?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Had all the bullets hit the media at the same velocity, the heaviest bullet would have had the greatest penetration, and the lightest bullet the least. The reason all the bullets penetrated to the same depth is because their mass made up for the differences in velocity.
If you are wondering if the lead core bullet would of failed at 2800 FPS, the answer is yes, I believe it would of. The advantage of the heavier bullet is that it can out perform the lighter bullet without being driven to a velocity that will cause it to fail. I believe that 2400 to 2600 FPS is the highest impact velocity we can expect from a modern bullet without failure. In my test even 2600 FPS was too fast for the X bullet. I have a .510" 570 gr X bullet at home that was recovered from my cape buff. The impact velocity was about 2100 FPS, and the bullet looks like the ones on the Barnes web site - it functioned perfectly.
All of this is not to say that a 180 gr X Bullet will not kill a grizzly. It will. What I am saying is that based on my tests, I believe that a heavy, bonded lead core bullet may out perform a mono-metal bullet on a dangerous animal when the range is measured in feet rather than yards.
If you are wondering if the lead core bullet would of failed at 2800 FPS, the answer is yes, I believe it would of. The advantage of the heavier bullet is that it can out perform the lighter bullet without being driven to a velocity that will cause it to fail. I believe that 2400 to 2600 FPS is the highest impact velocity we can expect from a modern bullet without failure. In my test even 2600 FPS was too fast for the X bullet. I have a .510" 570 gr X bullet at home that was recovered from my cape buff. The impact velocity was about 2100 FPS, and the bullet looks like the ones on the Barnes web site - it functioned perfectly.
All of this is not to say that a 180 gr X Bullet will not kill a grizzly. It will. What I am saying is that based on my tests, I believe that a heavy, bonded lead core bullet may out perform a mono-metal bullet on a dangerous animal when the range is measured in feet rather than yards.
Last edited:
Below is a 180gr tsx launched at 3380fps out of my 300ultramag.The impact velocity was estimated to be in excess of 2900fps.The expanded diameter was .800".The retained weight was 160gr.Do you doubt that this would have been effective at stopping a grizzly?
- Location
- AB foothills
stubblejumper said:
I think Mike answered that question before you posted....
I would have to agree with Boomers above statement.....
I know that this bullet would have killed a grizzly.However looking at the recovered bullet,and given the impact velocity,do you really believe that it would not have been just as effective as a heavier weight lead core bullet?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Stubblejumper, I do not dispute you have had good experiences with the TSX in your .300 Ultra. I will point out however, that I was able to make X's fail, whereas the bonded lead core bullet did not. The reason the X's failed in my test was due to their high impact velocity. That does not make the X a bad bullet, it works flawlessly when loaded to lower velocities, just like the bonded lead core bullets do. The reason the bonded lead core is better, in my opinion, is because it can be made shorter with greater weight. Because the solid shank of the lead core bullet is shorter in relation to it's over all length, the potential for expansion is greater.
The pic you posted of your bullet shows very impressive expansion, but a critical look at the pic shows what appears to be a bent shank, just like the 300 gr bullet in my test. In an encounter with dangerous game at close range you do not want that to happen because it compromises straight line penetration.
The original point of this thread was to determine which .30/06 bullet would be the best choice for use on a grizzly. When bear hunting, if the first shot is not a killing shot, and the bear gets into the willows, you have a problem, and sooner or later you will have to go in after him. Anyone who has been in that situation understands the stakes, and I was just trying to pass along the what I consider to be sound advise from a slightly different viewpoint, rather than the normal faster is better philosophy.
If you are getting almost 3400 fps with the 180 TSX, you have a wonderful long range hunting rifle, but undoubtedly you have a 26" barrel and a powerful scope to get the full potential from those ballistics. With a wounded bear in the willows, I wouldn't trade my 590 Mossberg for your rifle. My wife's '06 on the other hand, with it's CRF action, short length and ghost ring sight, I would use as happily as I would my .375. By the way, her rifle loaded with 180 gr XLC's, chronographed at 2550, but she doesn't go picking fights with bears, and it would be me going into the willows after one not her.
There are lots of different ways to solve a problem. Lots of bears have been killed with fast little bullets and lots have been killed with slow heavy ones. Anyone who has successfully killed a large game animal with any given combination has a well founded confidence in that combination, and those ideas die hard. Still, one must not be blind to new ideas, myself included.
The pic you posted of your bullet shows very impressive expansion, but a critical look at the pic shows what appears to be a bent shank, just like the 300 gr bullet in my test. In an encounter with dangerous game at close range you do not want that to happen because it compromises straight line penetration.
The original point of this thread was to determine which .30/06 bullet would be the best choice for use on a grizzly. When bear hunting, if the first shot is not a killing shot, and the bear gets into the willows, you have a problem, and sooner or later you will have to go in after him. Anyone who has been in that situation understands the stakes, and I was just trying to pass along the what I consider to be sound advise from a slightly different viewpoint, rather than the normal faster is better philosophy.
If you are getting almost 3400 fps with the 180 TSX, you have a wonderful long range hunting rifle, but undoubtedly you have a 26" barrel and a powerful scope to get the full potential from those ballistics. With a wounded bear in the willows, I wouldn't trade my 590 Mossberg for your rifle. My wife's '06 on the other hand, with it's CRF action, short length and ghost ring sight, I would use as happily as I would my .375. By the way, her rifle loaded with 180 gr XLC's, chronographed at 2550, but she doesn't go picking fights with bears, and it would be me going into the willows after one not her.
There are lots of different ways to solve a problem. Lots of bears have been killed with fast little bullets and lots have been killed with slow heavy ones. Anyone who has successfully killed a large game animal with any given combination has a well founded confidence in that combination, and those ideas die hard. Still, one must not be blind to new ideas, myself included.
Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- ,location, location
A TSX is about the last bullet I would pick on any game that may require stopping a charge (brain shot). The TSX needs soft material to enter the nose and hydrolicly open it up. I have shot TSX into dry newspaper and found they did not always open. I also remember reading about a hippo shot in the head with a TSX. The bullet did not open, veared off corse (as pointed FMJ bullets do) and was found unopend. If there is not enough meat or fluid before the bullet strikes bone you may end up with erratic performance.
- Location
- AB foothills
Republic of Alberta said:
May I ask what speeds were you pushing the TSX's that you were testing at and what caliber were you using? Dont get all deffensive, I am asking an honest question, just curious
Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- ,location, location
First time it happend to me was a 300g plain Barns X out of a 416 Rigby muzzle velocity was between 2600 and 2700fps and I shot the paper at 100 yards.
The next time was a 120g out of a 7mag. Muzzle velocity was 3270 and the paper was at 100 yards.
I had rememberd reading an artical in Handloader witten by John Barnsnes apparently he had the same trouble. Later I followed a tip also from John Barsnes and put some Vasoline in the hollow point. After that they opend every time on the dry newspaper.
The next time was a 120g out of a 7mag. Muzzle velocity was 3270 and the paper was at 100 yards.
I had rememberd reading an artical in Handloader witten by John Barnsnes apparently he had the same trouble. Later I followed a tip also from John Barsnes and put some Vasoline in the hollow point. After that they opend every time on the dry newspaper.
Boomer said:
I like your viewpoints Boomer since I share the same opinions; I hate that idea of lighter, faster!
The older I get the more I appreciate large caliber, heavy bullet, moderate speed.
Assuming I was going to use my .30-06 for a grizzly hunt, I would handload some 220 gr Nosler Partitions for it. I don't even know what MV that bullet is capable of out of a .30-06, but likely something between 2300-2400 fps.
I would use that same bullet if I was using my .300 H&H (which would obviously be 100-200 fps faster).
FWIW I have never used a Barnes X bullet in any caliber simply because I have always been satistfied with Nosler Partition and Accubonds and various Hornadys. Excellent performance and (especially the Hornadys) a fraction of what the Barnes X costs.
Dollar for dollar you cannot beat 1) Nosler Partition 2) Hornady Interlock.
The older I get the more I appreciate large caliber, heavy bullet, moderate speed.
Reminds me of me...older, heavier, and a lot slower! I agree with the bullet philosophy, too.
Assuming I was going to use my .30-06 for a grizzly hunt, I would handload some 220 gr Nosler Partitions for it
Me too.
I have never used a Barnes X bullet in any caliber
I have to admit the TSXs sure are easy to get a good group out of! I might have to trade you into a box of .458/450 TSX, so you have something new to play with. Your Lott might get all excited!
Reminds me of me...older, heavier, and a lot slower!
I agree with the bullet philosophy, too.Assuming I was going to use my .30-06 for a grizzly hunt, I would handload some 220 gr Nosler Partitions for it
Me too.
I have never used a Barnes X bullet in any caliber
I have to admit the TSXs sure are easy to get a good group out of! I might have to trade you into a box of .458/450 TSX, so you have something new to play with. Your Lott might get all excited!
Demonical said:
I also like Partitions, I used them for years with great sucess, but FYI:
WSS Catalogue
Barnes TSX
180gr-46.99
200gr-48.99
Partition
180gr- 44.99
200gr-45.99
So the costs are pretty comparable.
Although I have got good accuracy wiht Partitions, for the most part I've found the TSX's to be more accurate and/or easier to work up loads for, so you may even be saving money in that regards.
Accubonds are less expensive, of course, and Hornadys even less.
Frankly, if I was going in after a grizzly in tight cover wiht a 30-06, I'd be less focused on the bullet in the chamber, than putting it between the eyes
I would want a GOOD bullet, but I am not sure if I woudl care if it was a 180gr TSX or a 200 gr Partition.
- Location
- South Cariboo, BC
Republic of Alberta said:
Vasoline to make penetration more pleasing, who'd a thunk it?
Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- ,location, location
AND the TSX is ribbed for her pleasure.
As I stated,the impact velocity of this bullet was in excess of 2900fps which is about as much as you can produce with a 30-06 at the muzzle.The cartridge in question here is the 30-06,so a higher impact velocity would not be a factor.
Actually upon a careful examination of the bullet,I see no sign of a bent shank.
I cleaned the animal and recovered the bullet,so I can assure you that the penetration was quite linear.
My scope is a 3x10x42 swarovski.I have actually been charged by a grizzly which I did stop at less than 40 yards with a 3x9 scope and at 3x,I had no problems placing the bullet properly on the charging bear.
Do you mean like the hide and fat under it?
The bullet pictured was recovered from an actual game animal not paper.Which do you think provides the most realistic results?
Last edited:
