Grizzly bullet for 30-06

[Boomer]

Nice to see you are keeping up with the coversation Tod.

The following pic shows the .510/570 gr X bullet recovered from my buffalo beside the 270 gr XLC from my test. The expansion measures .972", and the unexpanded portion of the shank measures about .82". Just imagine if this bullet had a shank designed to allow expansion to come back another third of an inch. The shank would of still been a half inch long, and quite sufficient to maintain the integrity of the bullet, and the expansion would of easily made 1.5". Even when things work, one needs to think critically to see if it could be done better.

 

[Republic of Alberta]

I have always though the same thing about the X bullets. They should come out with the TSXEX (triple shock extra Xpansion)

 

[Gatehouse]

Now Gate's post brings up some interesting points, and some interesting questions.

Firstly, the .458 normally produces excellent bullet performance due to its lethargic velocity. Even the 300 gr bullet would of been traveling under 2500 fps, so one would expect all soft point bullets to open as designed.

In my test, all 3 bullets despite a spread of 500 fps penetrated to the same depth. Phil Shoemakers findings are the same. What Shoemaker does not say I find equally interesting, and that has to do with wound volume.

Perhaps the rotting whale carcass tissue was not firm enough to make any reasonable measurement, or perhaps it just smelt too bad to bother. Had measurements been made, I am sure he would of discovered that the heaviest bullet showed the greatest amount of upset, and also the largest wound volume, prior to the point where the permanent wound channel narrows to the diameter of the bullet.

As I've said before, I think the heavier the bullet, the broader the expansion - X bullets appear to be the exception to the rule as the nose cavity of X bullets remain the same depth within caliber, and the length of the shank determines the weight of the bullet. In other words, X bullets are built backwards, but this undoubtedly reduces cost, and the bullets do perform well on game under most circumstances.

A modern lead core bonded bullet has a solid shank of a fixed length, and the weight is controlled by the length of the lead core up front. Therefore, the heavier the bullet, the greater the expansion, and the larger the wound volume.

With regards to the X bullet, it would appear that within caliber there is little advantage to using a heavy bullet over a light one, except that the velocity can be held down with the heavier bullet with no loss of penetration. The lower velocity may or may not be beneficial in preventing the wings of the X bullet from breaking off.

The lighter X bullet penetrated just as deep and expanded just as much - if not more- than the heavier bullets, which leads me to believe the wound cavity would be similar. The only other place to get more wound volume would be if the noses of the other bullets blew off and sent shrapnel into the animal.

I wonder if the bullets had been 400 and 500 gr X bullets, what the results woudl have been?

I still think we are making mountains out of molehills in this case. A TSX or a Partition in the same place in the same grizzly that is facing you likely will end wiht the same result.

 

[Gatehouse]

The X bullet has four petals that fold back. What happens if three petals break off? If that happens, the bullet is unbalanced, and straight line penetration is lost.

.

Yes, maybe, but is it relevent as it pertains to killing an animal- as opposed to a dscussion of solids? (not counting hippos and the like)

Many bullets, upon impact, end up with an irregular "mushroom" yet still penetrate well. Yes, this is not what you want frrom a solid. A solid you want to behave exactly as you describe.

However, most of the Partitions that I have actually recoverd- rather than exited- have exhibited a somewhat iregular mushroom. Although I can't compare them to the ones that HAVE exited, of course.

 

[stubblejumper]

I have always though the same thing about the X bullets. They should come out with the TSXEX (triple shock extra Xpansion)

Actually the tsx expands very well if driven at higher velocity.Would you really expect more expansion from any .308" bullet than the one in the picture that I posted?On the other hand,when driven at lower velocity,they don't open up as rapidly as some other bullets.Perhaps Barnes could sell a second tsx designed for lower velocity cartridges,however,it may not hold together if driven at high velocity.

 

[Boomer]

When we are talking about large animals - particularly dangerous ones, I think that the bigger the hole one can make the better.

With regards to the Nosler Partition, for many years I believed it was the best game in town. Perhaps the recovered ones did not work as well as the ones which penetrated through and through. Of coarse, no too animals are identical, and neither are any two bullets' trajectory through different game animals. When the original X's came out, I thought they were the greatest thing ever. Then I discovered that the heavier ones would not shoot in my rifles, and in some cases neither would the light ones. Reports became common that some X's did not expand reliably. Then the XLC and the TSX came out, and these seemed to resolve the accuracy problem. but then it became apparent that you couldn't get any advantage from using the heavier bullet, so light to mid bullet weight was all the performance that was available for any given caliber. With lighter bullets comes higher velocity, and like any bullet, the X has velocity design limitations, which was proven in my test.

When I was shooting a .458, it became apparent very quickly that due to the low velocity, cheap jacketed bullets often worked as well as expensive ones.

In the case of the X bullet however, the expansion diameter is restricted by the depth of the nose cavity. Once the solid shank becomes the nose of the bullet, no more expansion can be realized within that design. The only way a larger frontal area can be created with an X bullet, is if the petals do not curl back in towards the shank. The whales I've seen up close, have very dense flesh, so I find it difficult to see how a .458/300 X's petals would not be curled back towards the shank, nor can I understand how this bullet could match the expansion of the heavier lead core bullets provided that: A) the lead core bullet did in fact fully expand to the full extent of it's design parameters, and B) that the design parameters of the specific heavier lead core bullets did in fact exceed the expansion potential of the X's in the first place.

From the synopsis of the artical, which I have not had the advantage of reading, it appears that all of the bullets expanded to the extent allowed by their design parameters. I would be interested in knowing if any of the heavy lead core bullets had bonded cores, because a bonded core will allow expansion without the problem of the core seperating from it's jacket, and therefore can be designed to continue to expand right down to the solid shank, resulting in greater expansion.

The X's have proven that a long shank serves no purpose in the killing of game. If a lead core bullet is going to exceed the X's limitations it must be designed to leave less shank length, without the bullet loosing the integrity of it's structure.

 

[stubblejumper]

The X's have proven that a long shank serves no purpose in the killing of game. If a lead core bullet is going to exceed the X's limitations it must be designed to leave less shank length, without the bullet loosing the integrity of it's structure.

I just measured the 180gr tsx that I posted the picture of.The maximum diameter is .850" while the maximum overall length is .725".In other words the expanded diameter is larger than the remaining length including the shank.How do your recovered 240gr bonded core .308" bullets measure by comparison?Is the diameter larger than this tsx?Is the diameter greater than the remaining overall length?

 

[Gatehouse]

Boomer, i will try to remember to check the article again. I'll mail/fax it to youif you want, as well. It's mostly about the rifle, but there is good bullet discussion, too.

 

[Boomer]

Boomer, i will try to remember to check the article again. I'll mail/fax it to youif you want, as well. It's mostly about the rifle, but there is good bullet discussion, too.

Thanks - just going out the door to the cabin, I'll pick this up again when I get back Sunday night.

 

[Gatehouse]

Looks liek I made a mistake.

The bullets used were
400gr X
Expansion: Avg 1.1"
Penetration: Deep

400gr Kodiak
450gr Swift
500 gr Hornady
Expansion: .80 "
Penetration Almost as deep

500 gr Woodleigh
500 gr Trophy Bonded
Expansion: 1" or more
Penetration: Almost as deep


I used "almost as deep" because he doesn't list actual penetration dpeth, but does say the experiment was gross. It appears the X bullets penetrated the best, and opened just as wide as the 500gr bullets.

He switched to using 400Ge X bullets for general use, because recoil was noticably reduced, but keeps a handful of 500 gr RN bullets handy because he finds them "comforting, even though the tests dont' show it."

 

[Boomer]

I just measured the 180gr tsx that I posted the picture of.The maximum diameter is .850" while the maximum overall length is .725".In other words the expanded diameter is larger than the remaining length including the shank.How do your recovered 240gr bonded core .308" bullets measure by comparison?Is the diameter larger than this tsx?Is the diameter greater than the remaining overall length?

I am still waiting for the 240 gr bullets I've ordered from two different manufacturers. If the .30 caliber bullets are scaled eqivilents to the .375/380 gr bullet I currently use, I expect expansion to be in the order of .75", without the risk of potential failures which are consistnet with high velocity bullet impacts.

The 240 gr Woodleigh has been used on numerous Australian Northern Territory buffalo. and the Woodleigh people state the useful velocity range of this bullet is 1900-2400 fps, making it an ideal bullet for use in the .30-06. Unfortunately, Woodleigh has not given the dimensions of recovered bullets.

For anyone interested in how bullets perform on game, there is an interesting article on Rhino Bullets website. The article is written by a PH who recorded his observations in the field from the performance of Rhino's ..458/500 gr bullets recovered from Tanzanian game and fired from his Brno 602 chambered for the .458 Watts during the 2000 season. In case you think this is a honey-moon article, the author is critical of the Rhino bullets in several regards and some of the pictures of recovered bullets are not what you expect to see from a company trying to show that their product is far and away the best. I consider this a well written unbiased report, which is probably why Kobus included it on his web-page.

To read the article click (http://www.rhinobullets.co.za/tanzania.htm)

 

[stubblejumper]

I am still waiting for the 240 gr bullets I've ordered from two different manufacturers

So you haven't actually tested the bullet in question either on game or in a comparable test medium,and you are only speculating how they will perform?

 

[Boomer]

So you haven't actually tested the bullet in question either on game or in a comparable test medium,and you are only speculating how they will perform?

No, not the specific .30 caliber bullet, but I have used these bullets in my .375. With any given bullet design it is fair to draw conclusions about how that one particular design will work in different calibers. For example the 180/.308 TSX will be similar to the 270/.375 TSX at similar velocities. I have shot enough of both of those bullets to know it holds true in that case.

I did cheat slightly though because a .30 caliber equivalent of the 380/.375 would weigh 256 grs, and no one to my knowledge makes such a bullet. If they did, performance would be very close to what I'm getting from my 380's, but they would be very long and require a fast twist, where as the 240's can be fired in a standard 1:10 .308 barrel. I am sufficiently confident from the testing I've done with the .380/.375's that I am planning to switch to a 240 gr lead core bonded solid shank bullet from the 180 gr X's that have been the bullet of choice in my wife's bear gun. It just depends which one proves better - the Woodleigh or the Wildcat.

You haven't asked why I haven't jumped on the TSX bandwagon with everyone else. It comes down to a piece of video that was on the Barnes website that really got me thinking about the use of these bullets on game other than ungulates. That video showed a TSX in slow motion fully expanding after penetrating only a 2" wedge of ballistic gelatin. This was in response to complaints that X's and XLC's were not expanding. Because I live where large bears do, and because shooting one is not far from my mind, and because I have seen bear anatomy up close inside and out, I began to wonder if this was the bullet performance that a guy really wanted from a bullet on bears. When I started to prepare for Africa, I knew damn well I didn't want my bullet to fully open on the first 2" of a cape buff - that wouldn't even get through his over-lapping ribs. If you end up in a close range situation with a bear and are forced to shoot, you have to break a big bone. A bullet that opens full diameter in thick skin and fat is compromised when it get to those big shoulder, chest, hip and spinal bones.

Again, understand that I am not saying X bullets don't work. They do, and I've used them in most calibers from 6mm to .458 - make that .510". I just think that the heavy for caliber lead core bonded bullet gives you an edge that might prove important when using a light caliber rifle on a potentially dangerous animal.

 

[Gatehouse]

FYI, Saeed, owner of Accurate Reloading.com has shot hundreds of buffalo wiht his 375-404 (About the same as a 375 RUM) using 300 gr X bullets.

IN his videos, almost all of them go down fast.

I've seen a few bears shot with TSX bullets now, and none of them have gone far. I'm pretty confifednt in the TSX bullets, they are accurate and seeme to kill well. Shoemakers menitoned that the X bullets penetrated disproportionatly for thier weight- Deeper than expected. I'd be interested in seeing how they measure up in a test compared tot he 240gr bullets, of course.

(But that doens't mean I'd switch. I think the TSX work great, they are readily avaialble, and I don't want to spend any mor etime working up loads than I have to! )

 

[Boomer]

It not a matter of what works as opposed to what doesn't. As I've said before the X bullets (X, XLC, TSX) work. What I am saying is that a properly designed heavy for caliber, lead core, bonded, solid shank bullet has an edge. One reason the lead core bullet has an edge is because it can make it's additional weight work towards killing the game where as the additional weight of any X bullet over what is considered "normal" weight for caliber is just along for the ride. The additional weight neither allows for greater expansion, nor produces better penetration.

I am satisfied my test proves that when velocity at the point of impact exceeds 2500 fps, the bullet - any bullet - will be more prone to damage than a similar bullet at lower velocity. The 570 gr X bullet I killed by buffalo with worked very well with a velocity of 2150. I am also satisfied that my test proves that a lead core bullet that is heavier than what is considered "normal" for caliber, uses it's additional weight towards killing the animal.

Bear guns do not need high velocity, because bear hunting is seldom a long range affair. Why then not get the most performance out of a bullet at moderate velocity. If we were thinking in terms of both a 180 gr X bullet and a 240 gr lead core bullet traveling at 2400 fps, there would be no argument. The 240 gr bullet would penetrate deeper and expand larger than the 180 gr X. The fact that the 180 can be driven to 2800 fps muddies the water - because faster is better according to some folks - so the advantages of the heavier bullet are lost on them.

I suspect if Tod gets a shot at a griz with his '06, the 180 gr TSX will work just fine. To think otherwise is not realistic. I wouldn't of loaded 180 gr XLC's for my wife's "06 if I didn't think they would work at close range on a big bear. I just don't happen to believe that X bullets are the last word in terminal ballistics.

 

[Gatehouse]

. If we were thinking in terms of both a 180 gr X bullet and a 240 gr lead core bullet traveling at 2400 fps, there would be no argument. The 240 gr bullet would penetrate deeper and expand larger than the 180 gr X. The fact that the 180 can be driven to 2800 fps muddies the water - because faster is better according to some folks - so the advantages of the heavier bullet are lost on them.

.

The question, then is:

What penetrates more- 180gr TSX at 2800fps or 240gr bullet at 2400fps? We can't accuratley compare bullet performance if we load one to it's optimum velocity and then underload the other.

I know what you are saying, but I still wonder if there is any real difference. The big slow and heavy bullets have ALWAYS penetrated well, like the 215gr bullets in the 303, the 160's in the 6.5x55 etc...

Although one of the things I love about the TSX is that it allows you to use lighter bullets that produce heavyweigth performance, without the recoil of the heavy bullets, and you can flatten trajectories a bit, if you are looking for an all purpose load, which many of us are.

 

[Boomer]

The question, then is:

What penetrates more- 180gr TSX at 2800fps or 240gr bullet at 2400fps? We can't accuratley compare bullet performance if we load one to it's optimum velocity and then underload the other.

I know what you are saying, but I still wonder if there is any real difference. The big slow and heavy bullets have ALWAYS penetrated well, like the 215gr bullets in the 303, the 160's in the 6.5x55 etc...

Although one of the things I love about the TSX is that it allows you to use lighter bullets that produce heavyweigth performance, without the recoil of the heavy bullets, and you can flatten trajectories a bit, if you are looking for an all purpose load, which many of us are.

As my test proves, there is no difference in penetration between a heavy bullet and a light one. The light bullet's higher velocity and the heavy bullet's additional mass equals out the penetration. The advantage as I see it is that choosing a heavier bullet keeps the velocity in the middle of the design parameters of the bullet.

So lets talk about bullet weight and recoil. A heavy bullet in a .375 will produce more recoil than a light bullet in a .30/06. However, when fired in the same cartridge, mid-weight bullets seem to produce the sharpest recoil. When you load heavyweight bullets, the powder charge is less, the bullet velocity is less, and the sharpness of the recoil drops. I've found that with when I load the heaviest loads I can, 180's produce sharper recoil in the '06 than 220's, and the 285's produce ugly recoil in .375 Ultra.

Flat trajectory is the rifleman's snake oil. Increase velocity by 300 fps to loose 2" of mid range trajectory. Big deal! I can hit targets at 300 yards with the 380's at 2300 from my .375. I can hit targets at 300 with 260 gr BT's at 2900 in the same rifle - where is the advantage? I don't shoot big game beyond 300 anyway, and seldom beyond 200. If you want to shoot game at 1000 yards, knowing how many come ups you need is more important than whether it's 28 or 35 minutes.

 

[stubblejumper]

It not a matter of what works as opposed to what doesn't.

To me it is a matter of what bullet actually works on game as opposed to what bullet doesn't work on game.I put much more faith in actual on game performance than on simulations and theories..

lthough one of the things I love about the TSX is that it allows you to use lighter bullets that produce heavyweigth performance, without the recoil of the heavy bullets, and you can flatten trajectories a bit, if you are looking for an all purpose load, which many of us are.

My feelings exactly.

However, when fired in the same cartridge, mid-weight bullets seem to produce the sharpest recoil. When you load heavyweight bullets, the powder charge is less, the bullet velocity is less, and the sharpness of the recoil drops. I've found that with when I load the heaviest loads I can, 180's produce sharper recoil in the '06 than 220's, and the 285's produce ugly recoil in .375 Ultra.

That has not been my experience.I have found that the heavier for caliber bullets produce more recoil in all of the cartridges that I reload for.

Flat trajectory is the rifleman's snake oil. Increase velocity by 300 fps to loose 2" of mid range trajectory. Big deal! I can hit targets at 300 yards with the 380's at 2300 from my .375. I can hit targets at 300 with 260 gr BT's at 2900 in the same rifle - where is the advantage? I don't shoot big game beyond 300 anyway, and seldom beyond 200.

I use the same load for all of my hunting and I have made kills on game animals in excess of 400 yards.The difference in the B.C. between a 180 tsx which is relatively streamlined and a 240gr woodleigh which is basically a round nose is quite significant when considering both trajectory and more importantly wind drift.Trajectory is more easily compensated for by the use of a laser rangefinder,however wind drift is a different matter.An error of a few mph of wind at 300 or 400 yards can make the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal.The less wind drift,the less the chance of this happening.

 

[todbartell]

well anyways, the 30-06 is sighted in with 200 grain Triple Shocks @ 2510 fps. +2" @ 100m, -3" @ 200m

Im going on a short grizz hunt at the beginning of next week although the 8mm STB is going too

 

[Demonical]

How come a short hunt? Season limitation? Work constraint?

If you get a chance at a nice grizzly, stalk to within 30 yards and then smoke 'im!