Guide Outfitters Association
- Thread starter Cole
- Start date
I guess the poaching is gonna get pretty rampant if this crap goes through.
GOABC should be dismantled, those guys get paid to "hunt" skulls/capes/horns and antlers. Most resident hunters are hunting to put meat on their tables. Most resident hunters spread money throughout the province on our hunting journeys.
Ya, this crap has to stop
GOABC should be dismantled, those guys get paid to "hunt" skulls/capes/horns and antlers. Most resident hunters are hunting to put meat on their tables. Most resident hunters spread money throughout the province on our hunting journeys.
Ya, this crap has to stop
Just seen on FACEBOOK that the B.C. Guide Outfitters Association is lobbying the government to "sharply reduce the amount of game taken by the public."
Anybody got a bead on this?
"
Yeah that would be so wrong. They should have no right to dictate the amount the public gets to hunt. I know its there lively hood but they choose that job. To bad
December 10th, 2014
Sweeping changes to B.C.’s wildlife allocations could result in 5,000 fewer hunting permits going to residents
Sweeping changes to B.C.’s Wildlife Allocation Policy proposed by the Guide-Outfitters Association of B.C. would dramatically reduce residents’ access to wild game and increase the number of permits sold to foreign big game trophy hunters, according to the B.C. Wildlife Federation (BCWF). This proposed change could result in 5,000 fewer hunting permits going to B.C. residents.
Most jurisdictions across North America give foreign hunters 5-10 percent of the harvestable surplus of wildlife. The changes proposed by the Guide-Outfitters Association of B.C., which represents 210 outfitters who have exclusive rights to guide trophy hunters, would give foreign hunters up to 40 percent of specific game species such as mountain sheep, goat and bear, and up to 25 percent of moose and elk.
In 2007 a new Wildlife Allocation Policy was established in B.C. in an attempt to fairly determine the number of hunting permits allocated, which gave foreign hunters the best share of the available hunting permits. Even then, the Guide Outfitters Association of B.C. started vigorously lobbying the government to amend or scrap the new wildlife policy.
“Proposed changes to the Wildlife Allocation Policy are inconsistent with standard practices in otherjurisdictions across Canada and in the United States,” said George Wilson, President of the B.C. Wildlife Federation, which represents 45,000 conservationists. “There is no justification for these changes and they are not supported by B.C.’s resident hunters.”
Over the last 10 years, the number of B.C. hunters has grown by 20 percent, increasing from 84,000 to over 102,000. Over the same period, the number of foreign trophy hunters coming to B.C. has dropped from 6,500 to 4,500, a decline of 30 percent.
Hunting has become increasingly popular in B.C. as more families shyaway from industrially produced meats in favour of organic wild game. This sustainable food movement is particularly popular in northern communities, central B.C. and even the Lower Mainland where people are depending on hunting to fill their freezers and feed their families.
B.C. resident hunters spend over $230 million a year in local communities on hunting related activities and contribute $9 million a year towards conservation work through license fees. Resident hunters also contribute through donations to conservation organizations such as The Nature Trust, and Ducks Unlimited as well as volunteer for conservation activities. B.C. Wildlife Federation members alone dedicate more than 300,000 hours annually to fish, wildlife and habitat conservation projects across the province.
Moose is the most sought after species by B.C.’s resident hunters. In many areas, demand exceeds supply and hunters are placed on a Limited Entry Hunt (LEH) lottery to ensure sustainability. Approximately 70,000 BC hunters apply for 13,000 LEH permits each year, meaning only 1 in 5 hunters get to hunt moose annually. Foreign hunters do not need to apply for a LEH permit, and can hunt annually, taking moose from approximately 3,000 B.C. hunters each year. The proposed changes would see even more British Columbians go without an opportunity to hunt moose.
“B.C. residents who depend on hunting to help sustain their familiesshould be supported by provincial government policy,” said Jesse Zeman, a BCWF director, who hunts with his whole family. “The overriding priority for all hunters is conservation, ensuring there is enough game available for First Nations, and then fulfilling the hunting needs of B.C. families. Any changes to the Wildlife Allocation Policyshould meet the needs of the majority of British Columbians who enjoy the outdoors, spend time with friends and family, and hunt for food.”
Over the past two decades, there has been a steady erosion of hunting permits available to B.C. resident hunters in favour of foreign hunters. For example, non-resident hunting permits for moose in the Kootenay Region have gone from 6 percent in 1991 to 21 percent in 2012, leaving hundreds of Kootenay residents without the opportunity to hunt moose.
The B.C. Wildlife Federation is calling on the BC government to fairlylegislate wildlife allocations. The organization does not support giving away more than 10 percent for moose and elk, and 25 percent of mountain goat, sheep, and bears to foreign trophy hunters. Ironically, this gives non-resident hunters the best deal in North America. Several jurisdictions across North America have already set wildlife allocation in law. Saskatchewan limits non-resident moose hunters to 4 percent of the harvestable surplus. Alberta sets non-resident allocations between 2-7percent with a maximum of 10 percent. Washington State has limited non-resident wildlife allocations to approximately 5 percent.
“Resident hunters firmly believe any policy changes should reflect the best interests of the majority of British Columbians who depend on hunting as a sustainable, healthy food source,” said BCWF President George Wilson. “Our organization is committed to working with the government to protect wildlife and ensure equitable distribution of this resource.”
BCWF BC Resident Hunter Fact Sheet [PDF]
This document contains figures and statistics that show the significant economic impacts of resident hunting in B.C.
-30-
The BCWF is British Columbia's largest and oldest conservation organization with over 45,000 members passionately committed to protecting, enhancing and promoting the wise use of the environment for the benefit of present and future generations. Visit www.bcwf.bc.ca for more information.
For more information on this issue, contact Jesse Zeman, co-Chair, BCWF Wildlife & Allocations Committee, at 250-878-3799 or essezeman@gmail.com
For general media inquiries, contact Curtis Ketter, BCWF Marketing and Communications Coordinator at 604-882-9988 ext 233 or marketing@bcwf.bc.ca
For more information on the province’s Wildlife Harvest Allocation Policy, visit http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/
Sweeping changes to B.C.’s wildlife allocations could result in 5,000 fewer hunting permits going to residents
Sweeping changes to B.C.’s Wildlife Allocation Policy proposed by the Guide-Outfitters Association of B.C. would dramatically reduce residents’ access to wild game and increase the number of permits sold to foreign big game trophy hunters, according to the B.C. Wildlife Federation (BCWF). This proposed change could result in 5,000 fewer hunting permits going to B.C. residents.
Most jurisdictions across North America give foreign hunters 5-10 percent of the harvestable surplus of wildlife. The changes proposed by the Guide-Outfitters Association of B.C., which represents 210 outfitters who have exclusive rights to guide trophy hunters, would give foreign hunters up to 40 percent of specific game species such as mountain sheep, goat and bear, and up to 25 percent of moose and elk.
In 2007 a new Wildlife Allocation Policy was established in B.C. in an attempt to fairly determine the number of hunting permits allocated, which gave foreign hunters the best share of the available hunting permits. Even then, the Guide Outfitters Association of B.C. started vigorously lobbying the government to amend or scrap the new wildlife policy.
“Proposed changes to the Wildlife Allocation Policy are inconsistent with standard practices in otherjurisdictions across Canada and in the United States,” said George Wilson, President of the B.C. Wildlife Federation, which represents 45,000 conservationists. “There is no justification for these changes and they are not supported by B.C.’s resident hunters.”
Over the last 10 years, the number of B.C. hunters has grown by 20 percent, increasing from 84,000 to over 102,000. Over the same period, the number of foreign trophy hunters coming to B.C. has dropped from 6,500 to 4,500, a decline of 30 percent.
Hunting has become increasingly popular in B.C. as more families shyaway from industrially produced meats in favour of organic wild game. This sustainable food movement is particularly popular in northern communities, central B.C. and even the Lower Mainland where people are depending on hunting to fill their freezers and feed their families.
B.C. resident hunters spend over $230 million a year in local communities on hunting related activities and contribute $9 million a year towards conservation work through license fees. Resident hunters also contribute through donations to conservation organizations such as The Nature Trust, and Ducks Unlimited as well as volunteer for conservation activities. B.C. Wildlife Federation members alone dedicate more than 300,000 hours annually to fish, wildlife and habitat conservation projects across the province.
Moose is the most sought after species by B.C.’s resident hunters. In many areas, demand exceeds supply and hunters are placed on a Limited Entry Hunt (LEH) lottery to ensure sustainability. Approximately 70,000 BC hunters apply for 13,000 LEH permits each year, meaning only 1 in 5 hunters get to hunt moose annually. Foreign hunters do not need to apply for a LEH permit, and can hunt annually, taking moose from approximately 3,000 B.C. hunters each year. The proposed changes would see even more British Columbians go without an opportunity to hunt moose.
“B.C. residents who depend on hunting to help sustain their familiesshould be supported by provincial government policy,” said Jesse Zeman, a BCWF director, who hunts with his whole family. “The overriding priority for all hunters is conservation, ensuring there is enough game available for First Nations, and then fulfilling the hunting needs of B.C. families. Any changes to the Wildlife Allocation Policyshould meet the needs of the majority of British Columbians who enjoy the outdoors, spend time with friends and family, and hunt for food.”
Over the past two decades, there has been a steady erosion of hunting permits available to B.C. resident hunters in favour of foreign hunters. For example, non-resident hunting permits for moose in the Kootenay Region have gone from 6 percent in 1991 to 21 percent in 2012, leaving hundreds of Kootenay residents without the opportunity to hunt moose.
The B.C. Wildlife Federation is calling on the BC government to fairlylegislate wildlife allocations. The organization does not support giving away more than 10 percent for moose and elk, and 25 percent of mountain goat, sheep, and bears to foreign trophy hunters. Ironically, this gives non-resident hunters the best deal in North America. Several jurisdictions across North America have already set wildlife allocation in law. Saskatchewan limits non-resident moose hunters to 4 percent of the harvestable surplus. Alberta sets non-resident allocations between 2-7percent with a maximum of 10 percent. Washington State has limited non-resident wildlife allocations to approximately 5 percent.
“Resident hunters firmly believe any policy changes should reflect the best interests of the majority of British Columbians who depend on hunting as a sustainable, healthy food source,” said BCWF President George Wilson. “Our organization is committed to working with the government to protect wildlife and ensure equitable distribution of this resource.”
BCWF BC Resident Hunter Fact Sheet [PDF]
This document contains figures and statistics that show the significant economic impacts of resident hunting in B.C.
-30-
The BCWF is British Columbia's largest and oldest conservation organization with over 45,000 members passionately committed to protecting, enhancing and promoting the wise use of the environment for the benefit of present and future generations. Visit www.bcwf.bc.ca for more information.
For more information on this issue, contact Jesse Zeman, co-Chair, BCWF Wildlife & Allocations Committee, at 250-878-3799 or essezeman@gmail.com
For general media inquiries, contact Curtis Ketter, BCWF Marketing and Communications Coordinator at 604-882-9988 ext 233 or marketing@bcwf.bc.ca
For more information on the province’s Wildlife Harvest Allocation Policy, visit http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/
Here's a petition everyone should sign.
http://www.change.org/p/ministry-of...pt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition
http://www.change.org/p/ministry-of...pt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition
Adrian J Hare
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- NewLowell On. Can.
Maybe we as hunters should lobby against the " Outfitting of Wild Animals" being that most of us support wild game projects and Outfitters tend to use it for Financial gains !
I'm aboriginal... Care to clarify that comment Grizz?
If BC resident hunters got off their asses and started getting organized and politically vocal, this crap wouldn't be happening to us.
The rut closure in region 5, granted after lobbying from the GOABC, has done Nothing but increase poaching here... Same goes for the continued LEH only moose. There lots of animals but the "trophy" quality animals are harder to find.... Thus the reg chamges and LEH.
Soon the whole province will be LEH LOL
If BC resident hunters got off their asses and started getting organized and politically vocal, this crap wouldn't be happening to us.
The rut closure in region 5, granted after lobbying from the GOABC, has done Nothing but increase poaching here... Same goes for the continued LEH only moose. There lots of animals but the "trophy" quality animals are harder to find.... Thus the reg chamges and LEH.
Soon the whole province will be LEH LOL
As BCWF past President of Region 5 I can say for a fact that apathy within the Region 5 hunting community is killing us, no one (OK .. very few people) ever get involved in fighting for their resident right to game. Too lazy I guess or possibly (and unfortunately) too disillusioned with the entire process .. and to a degree I can't blame them on that one BUT we can't give up like we have, we have to keep writing letters, talking to our MLA and pushing for better game management. The Guides have very effective paid lobbyist working for them. I am in no way against Guide Outfitters and truly believe the serve a very important role BUT they should not get more or better opportunities than residents. The deal worked out with them was done in good faith with a lot of hard work on both sides, was signed off and should have been put into play but it wasn't and now the Guides (some not all) are trying to renegotiate the deal. Right now the best bet is for Victoria to legislate the splits and stop the local game managers from "tweaking" the splits (resident hunting opportunity) for political reasons not game management.
*Edited to add - This has NOTHING to do with FN's, it's the residents and GO's fighting over the scraps left behind after FN's cut for FSC (food, social, ceremonial usage of game) and the games played by the Regional bios and managers.
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This letter from an HBC member sums it up well
Allocation Policy: Letters to MLAs
Premier Christy Clark, Minister Norm Letnick, and Minister Steve Thomson,
I’m writing as I am extremely disappointed with your government’s direction on wildlife management and wildlife allocations.
For my family and friends, hunting and fishing is a central part of our life. Instead of going to Mexico or another foreign country we spend our holidays almost exclusively on pack trips hunting or fishing in some part of British Columbia. Our friends and family who hunt make up an eclectic and diverse bunch who live across the province. They are accountants, carpenters, contractors, doctors, engineers, financial planners, pilots, teachers and wildlife biologists. The commonality is they all love to hunt.
Our family’s annual “staycations” exceed $20,000, money that could very easily be spent out of province. We pay our taxes on an acreage in Kelowna, where we have five horses which in large part are used for hunting. We live off wild salmon, halibut, cod, deer, moose, elk, goat, and sheep. We do not eat store bought beef, or fish. We buy farm-raised organic chicken and on occasion pork.
We live in British Columbia in large part due to our mountains, access to public land and unmatched biodiversity. The scenery and opportunity to access fish and wildlife, a public resource, is something we cherish and hope that our kids have access to – it is something we will try our best to protect.
Government’s approach to wildlife management and wildlife allocation is not consistent with what we elected and supported in the last provincial election. We supported candidates who we expected would represent their constituents and the public interest. We did not think we were supporting candidates who would give us their word a policy would be implemented, then turncoat and give backdoor deals to party supporters based on frivolous claims.
We have been given your government’s “word” that the Wildlife Allocation Policy would be implemented on dozens of occasions. We have been told all the license and surcharge fees from hunting would be dedicated to wildlife management; we have been told you care about wildlife populations and resident hunting, but you have chosen to focus almost exclusively on guide-outfitters.
You have directed the Fish and Wildlife Branch to focus on the guide-outfitting industry in BC. You have made multiple statutory and legislative changes to increase the profitability of the industry. You have allowed foreign ownership, and foreign assistant guides without asking the public. You have made policy decisions favouring the outfitting industry over resident hunters when your own internal policy analysis states “not consistent with intent…… unfair to residents,” and “would make outfitters happy”. You have spent branch resources to hire consultants to prove the guide industry has been impacted on two occasions, both of which found, with only a half-hearted attempt, the claims made by the industry are grossly inflated.
Being a “business-based” party I fail to see how adopting regressive policies which prop up the guide-outfitting industry on the backs of British Columbians’ is consistent with your party line.
You have allowed millions of dollars to be wasted by continuing with the frivolous environmental appeal board. You have hired an internal lobbyist for the guide-outfitting industry moving more resources away from wildlife management. The number of wildlife managers are at an all-time low despite unprecedented resource extraction, statutory and regulatory responsibilities. You have neglected fish and wildlife values in favour of non-renewable and un-sustainable natural resource extraction. You have let mountain caribou populations fail, to the point they are not viable, ignoring decades old recommendations from researchers because they are not ‘politically correct’. That is not what we thought we were supporting in local candidates.
Overall you are well into the process of privatizing wildlife to the benefit of the outfitting industry – and not even the outfitting industry, the Guide-Outfitters Association of BC. And all you had to do was invest in wildlife to increase wildlife populations making all consumptive users (including First Nations) happy. You chose to pick the guide-outfitting industry as the favorite child and neglected the interests of British Columbians and failed to protect our wildlife populations. That is not what we thought we were going to get when we cast our votes.
The list of government promises, as they relate to wildlife, and failure to deliver is long and it continues to grow.
Resident hunters pay the overwhelming majority of funding for wildlife conservation. Not only that but they pay income taxes which are used in part to pay for wildlife management and conservation activities. British Columbians pay taxes which are supposed to be used in part to manage, conserve and protect wildlife values across the province, yet guide-outfitters currently receive all of the benefit. Guide-outfitters have ironically had levels of taxation reduced. This makes your policies regressive where British Columbians and BC resident hunters are paying to subsidize the guide-outfitting industry in British Columbia. Subsidizing party supporters was clearly part of your platform you failed to mention to British Columbians in 2013.
What this all comes down to is you are failing my family, my friends, 102,000 resident hunters, their families and 4.5 million British Columbians for 210 party supporters. There is no doubt the public would not support your approach to wildlife or your support of liberal party supporters.
If you cannot get a handle on the outfitting industry by establishing an allocation policy which is in-line with North American standards and continue to fail to manage wildlife with any level of integrity, or transparency we will not vote for you in 2017. I will cash in my liberal party membership and we will go out of our way in the next election to get rid of you. Our focus will not be on getting another candidate elected, we will focus entirely on removing you as MLA.
Allocation Policy: Letters to MLAs
Premier Christy Clark, Minister Norm Letnick, and Minister Steve Thomson,
I’m writing as I am extremely disappointed with your government’s direction on wildlife management and wildlife allocations.
For my family and friends, hunting and fishing is a central part of our life. Instead of going to Mexico or another foreign country we spend our holidays almost exclusively on pack trips hunting or fishing in some part of British Columbia. Our friends and family who hunt make up an eclectic and diverse bunch who live across the province. They are accountants, carpenters, contractors, doctors, engineers, financial planners, pilots, teachers and wildlife biologists. The commonality is they all love to hunt.
Our family’s annual “staycations” exceed $20,000, money that could very easily be spent out of province. We pay our taxes on an acreage in Kelowna, where we have five horses which in large part are used for hunting. We live off wild salmon, halibut, cod, deer, moose, elk, goat, and sheep. We do not eat store bought beef, or fish. We buy farm-raised organic chicken and on occasion pork.
We live in British Columbia in large part due to our mountains, access to public land and unmatched biodiversity. The scenery and opportunity to access fish and wildlife, a public resource, is something we cherish and hope that our kids have access to – it is something we will try our best to protect.
Government’s approach to wildlife management and wildlife allocation is not consistent with what we elected and supported in the last provincial election. We supported candidates who we expected would represent their constituents and the public interest. We did not think we were supporting candidates who would give us their word a policy would be implemented, then turncoat and give backdoor deals to party supporters based on frivolous claims.
We have been given your government’s “word” that the Wildlife Allocation Policy would be implemented on dozens of occasions. We have been told all the license and surcharge fees from hunting would be dedicated to wildlife management; we have been told you care about wildlife populations and resident hunting, but you have chosen to focus almost exclusively on guide-outfitters.
You have directed the Fish and Wildlife Branch to focus on the guide-outfitting industry in BC. You have made multiple statutory and legislative changes to increase the profitability of the industry. You have allowed foreign ownership, and foreign assistant guides without asking the public. You have made policy decisions favouring the outfitting industry over resident hunters when your own internal policy analysis states “not consistent with intent…… unfair to residents,” and “would make outfitters happy”. You have spent branch resources to hire consultants to prove the guide industry has been impacted on two occasions, both of which found, with only a half-hearted attempt, the claims made by the industry are grossly inflated.
Being a “business-based” party I fail to see how adopting regressive policies which prop up the guide-outfitting industry on the backs of British Columbians’ is consistent with your party line.
You have allowed millions of dollars to be wasted by continuing with the frivolous environmental appeal board. You have hired an internal lobbyist for the guide-outfitting industry moving more resources away from wildlife management. The number of wildlife managers are at an all-time low despite unprecedented resource extraction, statutory and regulatory responsibilities. You have neglected fish and wildlife values in favour of non-renewable and un-sustainable natural resource extraction. You have let mountain caribou populations fail, to the point they are not viable, ignoring decades old recommendations from researchers because they are not ‘politically correct’. That is not what we thought we were supporting in local candidates.
Overall you are well into the process of privatizing wildlife to the benefit of the outfitting industry – and not even the outfitting industry, the Guide-Outfitters Association of BC. And all you had to do was invest in wildlife to increase wildlife populations making all consumptive users (including First Nations) happy. You chose to pick the guide-outfitting industry as the favorite child and neglected the interests of British Columbians and failed to protect our wildlife populations. That is not what we thought we were going to get when we cast our votes.
The list of government promises, as they relate to wildlife, and failure to deliver is long and it continues to grow.
Resident hunters pay the overwhelming majority of funding for wildlife conservation. Not only that but they pay income taxes which are used in part to pay for wildlife management and conservation activities. British Columbians pay taxes which are supposed to be used in part to manage, conserve and protect wildlife values across the province, yet guide-outfitters currently receive all of the benefit. Guide-outfitters have ironically had levels of taxation reduced. This makes your policies regressive where British Columbians and BC resident hunters are paying to subsidize the guide-outfitting industry in British Columbia. Subsidizing party supporters was clearly part of your platform you failed to mention to British Columbians in 2013.
What this all comes down to is you are failing my family, my friends, 102,000 resident hunters, their families and 4.5 million British Columbians for 210 party supporters. There is no doubt the public would not support your approach to wildlife or your support of liberal party supporters.
If you cannot get a handle on the outfitting industry by establishing an allocation policy which is in-line with North American standards and continue to fail to manage wildlife with any level of integrity, or transparency we will not vote for you in 2017. I will cash in my liberal party membership and we will go out of our way in the next election to get rid of you. Our focus will not be on getting another candidate elected, we will focus entirely on removing you as MLA.
The thread on the topic:
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showt...Policy-is-being-renegotiated-behind-your-back!
Get involved! Contact your MLA and the media !
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showt...Policy-is-being-renegotiated-behind-your-back!
Get involved! Contact your MLA and the media !
there is more and more locals (residents) in different places that are not happy with GO biz. it is really time to do something and not only in one little part of each paradise.
i really enjoy seeing people coming from outside for huting but locals should have right first.
Phil
i really enjoy seeing people coming from outside for huting but locals should have right first.
Phil
Really, you may be a resident hunter BUT you are guaranteed NOTHING. You have to fight for your share of the provinces resources joining the BCWF and E-Mailing your MLA is not asking a lot of local hunters.
Sit where you are and do nothing and that's what you'll be doing next the fall. The guiding association has a much better lobby to govt than we do and come only be over come with sheer numbers behind the BCWF.
BECOME A BIT MORE ACTIVE.
Sit where you are and do nothing and that's what you'll be doing next the fall. The guiding association has a much better lobby to govt than we do and come only be over come with sheer numbers behind the BCWF.
BECOME A BIT MORE ACTIVE.
Anyone better than me at writing letters? Post one up that I can use and I will definately send it off to multiple recipients.
I'm already a member of the BCWF, wild sheep society, NFA and I signed the online petition as well as shared it on Facebook and emailed the link to friends.
I'm already a member of the BCWF, wild sheep society, NFA and I signed the online petition as well as shared it on Facebook and emailed the link to friends.
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Limiting true access to hunt simply increases poaching. LEH should increase odds of success based on Postal Code. 1.4 Million people live from Horseshoe Bay to Hope, compared to 10-20 K for many interior towns. The result is that the majority of LEH draws go to people from hundreds of km away.
I couldn't disagree more, this is not the way to improve hunting opportunity. Equal access and the same odds for all residents applying for LEH, the odds are listed when you look at the LEH synopsis, make your choice and live with it. Trying to weigh LEH odds in favour of "local to the area" hunters is just wrong in my opinion and will only lead to people cheating about their address and it would be a nightmare to maintain the list of who lives where as people move and addresses change. I understand the feeling of smaller community hunters being over run by "out of towners" due to the shear number of LEH entries from the populated areas .. we all know what it feels like, similar to a degree for Westerners having lived under Liberal Rule from back East for so long ...but this is divisive and not good for the hunting community as a whole (JMO).
