Hand Cannon NP-30BD .45-08

Rusty Wood sells star line brass too. It's special order everywhere, but a guy at the range yesterday was telling me about how quick Rusty Wood is at getting oddball brass for him. I'm going to email him for 1000 pieces pretty right now. From what I saw yesterday, I don't think Rowland brass is what you will want. How much Long shot are you using to get 1500 fps? My chrony battery died in the cold before I could check any 200gn loads, but I had them at 13gns without any brass issues.
Kristian
 
Good news!

I deal with Peter at Rusty Wood, I will give him a call.

With the 200 grain Cast Lee bullet, 12 grains Longshot gives me a bit over 1200 fps.
I want to try Lee tumble lube on the bullets, see if there is any velocity/pressure sign differences.

I'm interested in the velocities you obtain with the 13 grain load/200 grain cast, in those .460 Rowland cases.

turbo_bird said:
Rusty Wood sells star line brass too. It's special order everywhere, but a guy at the range yesterday was telling me about how quick Rusty Wood is at getting oddball brass for him. I'm going to email him for 1000 pieces pretty right now. From what I saw yesterday, I don't think Rowland brass is what you will want. How much Long shot are you using to get 1500 fps? My chrony battery died in the cold before I could check any 200gn loads, but I had them at 13gns without any brass issues.
Kristian
Click to expand...
 
I might be able to try it again this weekend. The cast loads wouldn't feed worth crap for me, kept hanging up going into the chamber. They fed good at home when I cycled it by hand with the firing pin out, but not so much at the range. I'll have to load up some more of the plated ones to try again too. I found a battery pack for my chronograph that should last a bit longer in the cold for the next try. I'm going to guess that the 200gn loads will be pretty hot, seeing how the 230 fmj's were 1310 fps with 11gns.
Kristian
 
I got my 45-08 brass from Clarence Weatherby, Bumblebee Custom Machine bumblbee1@shaw.ca It cost me $46.29 for 25 pieces shipped, taxes in. I intend to start making my own soon (awaiting the Chucking Reamer), and if I'm successful I will post the procedure.

I got my Starline 45 ACP +P and 45 Super Brass from The Bullet Barn www.thebulletbarn.com. They can get 460 Rowland as well, but it would likely be special order.

I hope out go out this Saturday and try some loads of varying strength in my Norinco. All I've done to it is add a 22 lb Recoil Spring.

I'll use increasing loads of Longshot and HS-6 using 45 ACP, 45 ACP +P, 45 Super and 45-08 brass with a 230 gr FMJ bullet over a chrony and report the results.
 
Yes, Clarence took over from Gunnar. These cases are made on Gunnar's equipment.

Interested in the results you obtain with your equipment.

Also very interested in your load development results.

Andy said:
I got my 45-08 brass from Clarence Weatherby, Bumblebee Custom Machine bumblbee1@shaw.ca It cost me $46.29 for 25 pieces shipped, taxes in. I intend to start making my own soon (awaiting the Chucking Reamer), and if I'm successful I will post the procedure.

I got my Starline 45 ACP +P and 45 Super Brass from The Bullet Barn www.thebulletbarn.com. They can get 460 Rowland as well, but it would likely be special order.

I hope out go out this Saturday and try some loads of varying strength in my Norinco. All I've done to it is add a 22 lb Recoil Spring.

I'll use increasing loads of Longshot and HS-6 using 45 ACP, 45 ACP +P, 45 Super and 45-08 brass with a 230 gr FMJ bullet over a chrony and report the results.
Click to expand...
 
Here's the info that Gunnar used to provide with the brass, anyone looking for Longshot it looks like the BulletBarn out on Vancouver Island has some.
The Armco 45-08 What is it? This is actually nothing new. Enterprising shooters have been creating stronger .45ACP cases for over 80 years, using first 30-06 cases, and recently .308. The mechanism by which this is achieved has varied, with more or less usable results. Three things were needed and have recently come to pass: 1. First, a workable, professional way to prepare the cases, as opposed to the old methods of hacksawing and trimming the cases to length and then reaming the necks by hand. This resulted in uneven case wall thickness and poor cases (and worse accuracy). We have developed a die that holds the .308 case perfectly concentric to the reamer which then bottoms in the web of the case, ensuring a consistent depth of cut and identical case volumes. This is of course necessary in order to ensure consistent, safe, accurate loads. The cutting to length is achieved at the same time, with the case locked in place in the lathe. Repeatable and achieving a reasonable cost per case. 2. The second need was a good powder. Until a couple of years ago, shooters were experimenting with Unique, Blue Dot, even very good powders like Vihtavuori N105, the one I had the highest hopes for. The pressure was not a problem for the cases, but we hit the wall with primers. Even magnum rifle ones flowed and perforated, indicating pressures well above the 60,000 psi range. Mind you, we were getting a LOT of speed! Hodgdon brought out their new “Longshot” powder, and boy did it work! All of a sudden, another hundred plus FPS was attainable, with PISTOL PRIMERS! 3. The third need was for an understanding of how to keep a 1911 running under brutal conditions. That came from the experience of pistolsmiths such as myself with the knowledge of how to keep these guns running for a hundred thousand rounds or more of full power ammo. A few hundred rounds – even a couple thousand - of this stuff is no problem for a strong gun. How does the gun survive 200 grain bullets at 1400+ fps? Contrary to the guys touting the .45 Super (a pretty anemic round compared to this), and even the .460 Rowland (which also uses a comp to control the slide speed), we do NOT need a 28 lb recoil spring. These brutal springs introduce new problems (we’ve tried them) such as harsh feeding and bullet setback and feed failures. Ejection really didn’t seem to be any less violent. A 20 or 22 lb spring works really well, especially if coupled with the excellent .200” Red Buff by Chuck Hiett. A necessity (because of the slide speed) is good, stiff magazine springs. New ones work, especially Para Ordnance ones, but worn out mag springs WILL cause nose-up feed failures. I recommend HD Wolff ones. The rest of the gun needs no modification, except that it needs to be a good strong, tight gun, with sufficient barrel lug engagement in order to avoid barrel and slide lug battering. No AMT’s or Auto Ordnance guns need apply. No surprise to me, we have a lot of Norinco’s in the woods with these loads, and they seem to last well. Not pretty but strong as hell. Sometimes a slightly longer link is beneficial if your barrel lock-up is less than optimal. A full length guide rod is nice, but not essential. How about the shooter? One modification that REALLY helps is a good (not a drop-in) beavertail. Recoil gets quite noticeable. I have a guy running this stuff in a stock Commander, but it KICKS! And he’s not running max. loads… All that aside, these guns really don’t hurt like a Casull, or even a .44 Magnum. Pretty similar to a REALLY hot .38 Super. Everyone who shoots one asks for another magazine… Now, as to loads. You can run almost whatever you like because of the tremendously strong cases, but for the HOT loads, try Longshot. We start at 10 grains of Longshot and a 200 grain hard cast SWC bullet. Large pistol primer. I know it seats a little below flush, but it works great. I’ve used Winchester and CCI with good results. For some guns with small firing pins – a couple of Springfield models, for instance – we have experienced pierced primers and have gone to rifle primers. If you use rifle primers in yours, loads stay the same and they go off just great. For 230’s, start at 9.0 grains. MY maximum (I suggest you stop before that) is 12.5 grains with the 200 for over 1500 fps, and 11.0 grains with a 230 grain Jacketed flat nose bullet. My suggestion is a MAXIMUM of 11.5 and 10.5 grains for these two weights. I have not played with lighter bullets because our need here is for a bear defense load, and we need penetration above all. This is the reason for the 200 grain hard cast bullet. The flat nose cuts through clean and at 1400 fps (the 11.5 grain load), it goes a long ways through muscle and bone. At 1500 it REALLY hits hard! The 230 grain Noslers I tested at about 1300 generated more slide speed and ejection (and pressure). I like the 200’s as the energy numbers (yes, I know, I know…) are substantially higher. My own loads generate a half ton of energy, and that’s exactly what my 4” 629 does for me. And the revolver – much as I dearly love it - is a noticeably bigger gun, slower to shoot (EXACTLY half the split times between aimed shots), and holds 6 rounds compared to 11 for my Para Ordnance. AND not nearly as nice to carry as a 5” 1911, even a “wide-body”. Shootability? We have played a lot with these guns and my best time for four A-Zone hits on an IPSC target at 12 yards was .8 seconds. That’s from the first to fourth shot for just over a quarter of a second per shot. Not a pretty group but all four were center hits. Pretty slow by IPSC standards, but my best with the revolver is double that. That’s where we justify a load and gun combination like this in Bear Country. A bear at 12 yards starts a charge. You basically have time for 8 aimed shots with the auto and 4 shots with the revolver – If you have it out and ready. Given a shooter thoroughly familiar with the 1911, he has a hell of a lot better chance of walking away. As a point of interest, my initial testing almost two years ago was with a commander-length barrel in a Springfield Defender. It ran a 2 port compensator, and was a sweet gun to shoot with these loads. It was when I switched to a non-compensated gun that the slide speed gremlins caught up with me and I had to pop new HD springs into my old Shooting Star magazines. I don’t need to mention that the gun should have a good well adjusted extractor in it to pull these empties out reliably, but we have never had a problem getting empties out!! To date, the threshold is caused not by pressure or gun battering, but by recoil and slide speed, as well as primer flow and blowby. Not that we need to push past that particular threshold at all. I think we have what we need. A gun that will never match a .454 Casull, but is a very viable alternative to a short, carryable .44 Magnum with more firepower, similar power, and better ergonomics. Going further? 6” slide guns like the .38 Casull, 5 ½” barreled compensated carry guns, etc. all would make sense for Bear Carry, and would raise the bar of performance. 1600 fps with 200’s is easily attainable with the right barrel length and a comp, but do we need it? What’s this NEED stuff, anyway ?? In conclusion, please realize that I don’t know your gun or reloading practices, and I urge you to start low and be careful. Use your chronograph. You ARE on your own. And I really appreciate feedback. I have a couple of neat videos of these loads being fired, and more would be great. Gunnar Christensen www.armco-guns.com
Click to expand...
 
I'm back from the range and sufficiently thawed to report my findings.

Norinco 1911A1 - bone stock except for a Wolff 22 lb Recoil Spring.

230 gr Hornady FMJ in Starline 45 Super brass at an OAL of 1.275", and the same loads in 45-08 brass. I tried loads with Longshot starting at 7.0 grs and going to 11.0 grs. I did the same with HS-6 between 8.0 and 12.0 grs.

No surprises, except that even the 7.0 gr load cycled the action with the 22 lb spring. When I got in the 9.0 gr range, I had trouble keeping track of where the vigorously ejected brass went. MV's were as follows and match almost exactly what Hodgdon lists:

Longshot

7.0 grs - 850 fps
8.0 grs - 980 fps
9.0 grs - 1080 fps
10.0 grs - 1200 fps
11.0 grs - 1320 fps

HS-6

8.0 grs - 800 fps
9.0 grs - 880 fps
10.0 grs - 980 fps
11.0 grs - 1060 fps
12.0 grs - 1180 fps

Those results were with the Starline 45 Super brass. Using the 45-08, the MV's were about 70 fps higher due to its lesser case capacity.

The Starline 45 Super brass stood up very well - I see no need to go to 45-08. At 11.0 grs, the primers weren't pierced, but a burr developed. I will likely not go above 11.0 grs, but the brass could take it IMO. I'd like to try some Lapua "Palma" or Rem 22 BR brass with the Small Rifle primer to see if that would mitigate the primer issues.

Recoil was "snappy", but no need for a compensator. It felt a lot like 158 gr 357 Mag.
 
Last edited:
How I Make 45-08 Brass

This took a bit of thought and requires a lathe, but it's "easy-peasy". You want neck thickness of 10-11 thou, and a "pocket" for the bullet to sit in. Here's what I did:

1. Cut the 308 brass to about 0.925" (I used a little "Chop Saw" I have);
2. F/L size it in a 44-40 die. This will give you a consistent 0.457" outside diameter;
3. Using a 7/16" (0.4375") Chucking Reamer (bought on eBay for about $20 shipped), ream out the neck to where it will be about 0.350" down after trimming;
4. F/L size in a 45 ACP die;
5. Anneal; and
6. Trim to 0.898".

Regarding Steps 2 and 3, I could have just F/L sized in a 45 ACP die, but then I'd need an odd-sized and expensive Chucking Reamer (i.e. 0.449"). 7/16" is cheap and easy to find.

If I was to use 308 brass that had neck splits, or was otherwise in the scrap can, I'd be essentially using free brass.
 
Last edited:
Andy said:
I'm back from the range and sufficiently thawed to report my findings.

Norinco 1911A1 - bone stock except for a Wolff 22 lb Recoil Spring.

230 gr Hornady FMJ in Starline 45 Super brass at an OAL of 1.275", and the same loads in 45-08 brass. I tried loads with Longshot starting at 7.0 grs and going to 11.0 grs. I did the same with HS-6 between 8.0 and 12.0 grs.

No surprises, except that even the 7.0 gr load cycled the action with the 22 lb spring. When I got in the 9.0 gr range, I had trouble keeping track of where the vigorously ejected brass went. MV's were as follows and match almost exactly what Hodgdon lists:

Longshot

7.0 grs - 850 fps
8.0 grs - 980 fps
9.0 grs - 1080 fps
10.0 grs - 1200 fps
11.0 grs - 1320 fps

HS-6

8.0 grs - 800 fps
9.0 grs - 880 fps
10.0 grs - 980 fps
11.0 grs - 1060 fps
12.0 grs - 1180 fps

Those results were with the Starline 45 Super brass. Using the 45-08, the MV's were about 70 fps higher due to its lesser case capacity.

The Starline 45 Super brass stood up very well - I see no need to go to 45-08. At 11.0 grs, the primers weren't pierced, but a burr developed. I will likely not go above 11.0 grs, but the brass could take it IMO. I'd like to try some Lapua "Palma" or Rem 22 BR brass with the Small Rifle primer to see if that would mitigate the primer issues.

Recoil was "snappy", but no need for a compensator. It felt a lot like 158 gr 357 Mag.
Click to expand...

Your loads with 11.0gn Long Shot are pretty much the same as mine, so that's reassuring. The Rowland cases must be pretty close to the same interior dimensions as your 45 Super cases. Another thing I was thinking about, 45 Win Mag is a lengthened, strengthened 45 ACP. I wonder if it is and thicker in the case web than the Super and Rowland cases are. If so, that might be another way to make stronger cases without having to ream the necks like with the 308 cases. I can't seem to find any interior case dimensions for the 45 Win Mag, just exterior ones, which other than length, is the same as 45 ACP and 460 Rowland. I had a couple Rowland cases get mangled when I was shooting, so I will try to section them for measurements if I have time tomorrow. The bonus of the Win Mag brass is that it's a bit cheaper than the Rowland brass too.
Kristian
 
Well I got home from work a bit earlier than I thought, so I sliced up a couple cases. A Starline 460 Rowland on the left and a Norc 45 ACP on the right. I cut a Blazer brass case to just in case the Norc is out of spec. The head of the Rowland case is .180" thick, the Norc head is .150", and the Blazer is .160" The thickness just above the web at the end of the curve is .038" for the Rowland, .042" for the Norc, and .033" for the Blazer. The end of the curve in the web is about .220" from the head of the case for the Rowland, .190" for the Norc, and .190" for the Blazer. Putting the calipers down to the edge of the extractor cut and measuring thickness, I get .070" for the Rowland (won't go quite to the extractor cut), .062" for the Norc, and
.057" for the Blazer. So it looks like the Rowland brass is a little tougher than regular 45 ACP.
IMG_20150208_172450.jpg

Kristian
 
Last edited:
Andy said:
.... The Starline 45 Super brass stood up very well - I see no need to go to 45-08. At 11.0 grs, the primers weren't pierced, but a burr developed. I will likely not go above 11.0 grs, but the brass could take it IMO. I'd like to try some Lapua "Palma" or Rem 22 BR brass with the Small Rifle primer to see if that would mitigate the primer issues.
Click to expand...

I have some 400 Cor-Bon brass on order - it's based on 45 ACP +P and has a small rifle primer pocket. I'll size it to 45 ACP and try it with a CCI "Nato" primer (hardest cup of the ones I have) and see it that stems the primer flow even a bit. I'll load up some CCI "Nato" primers as well in my next batch of 45-08 I shoot.

The primer flow results from the generous clearance around the firing pin - the "Final" solution would be to bush the bolt to make it smaller, i.e. the size they use for 9mm Super (0.065" as opposed to 0.093" for the 45 ACP) and to reduce the existing clearance, but that's not something I'm inclined to even consider.
 
Last edited:
Andy said:
I'm back from the range and sufficiently thawed to report my findings.

Norinco 1911A1 - bone stock except for a Wolff 22 lb Recoil Spring.

230 gr Hornady FMJ in Starline 45 Super brass at an OAL of 1.275", and the same loads in 45-08 brass. I tried loads with Longshot starting at 7.0 grs and going to 11.0 grs. I did the same with HS-6 between 8.0 and 12.0 grs.

No surprises, except that even the 7.0 gr load cycled the action with the 22 lb spring. When I got in the 9.0 gr range, I had trouble keeping track of where the vigorously ejected brass went. MV's were as follows and match almost exactly what Hodgdon lists:

Longshot

7.0 grs - 850 fps
8.0 grs - 980 fps
9.0 grs - 1080 fps
10.0 grs - 1200 fps
11.0 grs - 1320 fps

HS-6

8.0 grs - 800 fps
9.0 grs - 880 fps
10.0 grs - 980 fps
11.0 grs - 1060 fps
12.0 grs - 1180 fps

Those results were with the Starline 45 Super brass. Using the 45-08, the MV's were about 70 fps higher due to its lesser case capacity.

The Starline 45 Super brass stood up very well - I see no need to go to 45-08. At 11.0 grs, the primers weren't pierced, but a burr developed. I will likely not go above 11.0 grs, but the brass could take it IMO. I'd like to try some Lapua "Palma" or Rem 22 BR brass with the Small Rifle primer to see if that would mitigate the primer issues.

Recoil was "snappy", but no need for a compensator. It felt a lot like 158 gr 357 Mag.
Click to expand...

Next up will be CFE Pistol. I'll work up from 11.0 grs and stop at 1300 fps.
 
Not to diss on a forum member but the 45.-08 cases I got from Gunnar were lathed too thin. Very hard to load...maybe a bad batch. But hardly a case I would count on as an ATC bear defense load.....others results might have been different??
 
350 Mag said:
Not to diss on a forum member but the 45.-08 cases I got from Gunnar were lathed too thin. Very hard to load...maybe a bad batch. But hardly a case I would count on as an ATC bear defense load.....others results might have been different??
Click to expand...

I've made my own (and provided instructions) and they were fine, but they're not needed.

Starline 45 Super brass is plenty strong for 460 Rowland load levels in 45 - I know as I've used it.
 
Last edited:
Longshot appears to be the powder of choice. Easy to get 1300fps with 230 gr bullets in my 460 Rowland.

My kit ($299 USD) came with 200 pieces of brass, and I ordered another 200. Brass is not expensive.

IMG_1460.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom