Handgun Hunting Support

How many of you would like to have it back?

  • YES, I strongly support it.

    Votes: 464 88.7%
  • I do not know what to think.

    Votes: 22 4.2%
  • NO, I would newer support it.

    Votes: 37 7.1%

  • Total voters
    523
And just what the hell rifle are you shooting that's so crappy you think 2 inch groups is "uber accurate"?

I was making a comparison to a handgun. Although 1.5-2" is considered accurate enough for hunting. Which equates to 6" at 300yards, the max most people shoot at. Which is not that far off gatehouse's 7.5" group. So why is a 6" group at 300 yards OK but the same at 50yards is marginal?

Hey I got 701 too!:D
 
Actually, accuracy in rifles these days is far better than is necessary for most hunting situations, and most hunters.

In Jack O'Connors "The Big game Rifle" he talks about how 2" groups were very good, and if you coudl attain that wiht a reliable load you shoudl be pleased.

2" groups translate to at LEAST 6" at 300 yards, but nobdy is saying a rifleman is under equipted to take 300 yard shots.
 
joe-nwt said:
I was making a comparison to a handgun. Although 1.5-2" is considered accurate enough for hunting. Which equates to 6" at 300yards, the max most people shoot at. Which is not that far off gatehouse's 7.5" group. So why is a 6" group at 300 yards OK but the same at 50yards is marginal?

Hey I got 701 too!:D
True. Reguardless of what you're using, you have to know and stay within your capabilities with it. "A man's got to know his limitations", Clint Eastwood.
 
So i did a bit more shooting today...Shot about 20 rounds from various positions and distances...

Here are 2 targets.

Truy remarkable how much better things go wiht a better position. Here is a picture of 3 shots from sitting, elbows on knees.

IMG_0802-copy.jpg


Sitting, with cross sticks (sorry the pic looks kinda longish- it was sitting on my truck seat wen I took the pic, and then when I shrank it, i guess osmehting didn't work! But you get the idea!:) )


IMG_0805-copy.jpg


Standing, freehand you need to pay attention at anythign past 10 yard or so!:cool:
 
Hey Gatehouse,

Nice shooting.

It's amazing what a steady shooting position can do, huh?

Standing, freehand you need to pay attention at anythign past 10 yard or so!

Are you interested at being a guinea pig? I would do this experiment myself but I'm getting on a plane for work in the morning. I think you are a good example of a potential handgun hunter.

If you're up to it; Get some pie plates or some other reasonable facsimile of a deer's vital zone. Put them up at typical handgun hunting distances.

Now, from what ever carry you would typically have in the bush, draw your 45 and fire one shot into these "vitals" .

On longer shots, don't dwell on exactly where you are going to hold, like you would target shooting. Just draw and shoot. I would be interested to see how you do in comparison with the groups you shot above. The groups are nice but do they really mean anything, hunting wise? Or is the first shot in the vitals under hunting conditions, without copious amounts of time to plan the shot, more important?

What say ye, Mr. Lab Rat?:)
 
And the naysayers go "do -de -do -de do-de- do- do-de -do-de -do-de- do-de- do- do- de.........Holly came from Miami Fla.........
 
The groups are nice but do they really mean anything, hunting wise?

Sure they're relevant - lots of hunters in the states use shooting sticks with their handguns. Especially with dedicated longer range guns like some of the contenders and encores.

Think of the 'intended uses' - one of them is to save weight when you're going into back country or up mountains or the like. A 3 lb pistol and 6 ounce shooting sticks that fold into a little belt pouch is still a hell of a lot better than even a 6 lb rifle.

If anything it adds to the 'possible uses' - suddenly goats or deer at 100- 150 yards don't seem impossible at all with a proper handgun with good optics and a set of sticks.

Think like a marketing guy - You're in front of a gov't official who says 'why would you "Need" a handgun, and you answer:

"I like to hike into back areas that are not frequented by average hunters to harvest deer. Unfortunately that means i must pack my stuff in and pack it back out, including the animal. In bear country, this presents several problems with a rifle. 1) - the rifle weighs a lot. 2) - it's impossible to pack it in such a way that if a bear decides it'd like to have that deer on my back i can defend myself. 3) - the extra 3 lbs of even a lightweight rifle means one day's less food, or 3 lbs less medical supplies, or not carrying a sat-radio, or other life-saving tools. A handgun such as an encore and scope with sticks offers me the ability to hunt to 150 yards effectively, the weight savings goes into additional supplies or life saving equipment, and when i'm dragging the bugger out, i still have a viable defense against a sudden animal attack.

In such an example - it's not the 'thrill of handguns' that is the point, it's the VERY VALID practicality of a lightweight easily portable shooting platform that fits on a belt, not a back. You don't want to 'play cowboy', you want to experience parts of bc that are wild and generally not traveled, and you are concerned about having to give up life saving tools or supplies.

Call it 'extreme hunting'. The point is to challenge yourself to face a difficult environment and push yourself to the limits, while experiencing part of the province few if any will see.

This is no different than what drives people to heli-ski. Or rock climb, or whatever.

In this case - the pistol is simply the most practical tool. Hey - a rifle would be great, but every ounce counts when you're 'going wild', and would the minister like to explain why he'd deny vital saftey gear to such a person who is obviously using all the available tools to ensure his handgun is every bit as lethal as a rifle, including his own rest?

Anything we do that demonstrates that the handgunner is taking all reasonable precautions and efforts to minimize the chance of a wounded animal is a GOOD thing. Just like 'guns that go to 11'.
 
Sure they're relevant - lots of hunters in the states use shooting sticks with their handguns. Especially with dedicated longer range guns like some of the contenders and encores.

Well, yes, they are relevent to the accuracy of the gun. But the first shot is going to be the important one. A second shot, on game that is wounded and on the move would be much more difficult than with a rifle. If it turns directly away from you, what meaningful target are you going to aim for? A wounded animal will be out of range much quicker to the handgun hunter than the rifle hunter.
 
Joe, if I have some time I'll try it out...

I think that is a far better guage of a hunting weapon than shooting groups- Can you hit your target wiht the first shot?

i don' anticipate any "quick daw" handgun hunting (liek IPSC!) but I suppose anytign can happen...:D
 
Well, yes, they are relevent to the accuracy of the gun. But the first shot is going to be the important one.

Well - that's always the goal isn't it :)

That's not really different than a bow, or single shot rifle. It's always better to make your first shot count than count on a second shot.

Again - thinking from a 'selling the idea' point of view, it is to our advantage to demonstrate that 'ethical handgun hunters' take every step reasonable to ensure their first shot is lethal, just like with a rifle. There's no intent to 'spray and pray'. The more we foster the idea that 'handgun hunting is STILL one shot one kill' the better. Sure, things go wrong (they do with rifles too) but the ACHIEVABLE goal is to put a fatal round in the animal as often and as regularly as one would expect with a rifle.

Who could argue with that? Especially with something like that blaster from the other thread - the energy, the ballistics, the optics, all demonstrate that with a stable rest in the hands of a reasonably trained shooter there is a very very high expectation of a single shot hit and kill, every bit as much as a 'standard' hunting rifle, to reasonable ranges (such as 100 yards and change).

That is the image we want in people's minds. We want to avoid the image that 'handgun hunting is challenging because there's a higher chance of missing the animal' and promote the image that "handgun hunting is fun and challenging because it lets you go places and do things that are more difficult with a rifle - and still gives you the same killing accuracy and power you'd expect out of many rifles out to reasonable hunting ranges comfortably (not marginally). 100 yards is a reasonable hunting range. If the gun and an average shooter with sticks can hit out to 130 yards with consistency and plenty of killing power - then it is impossible to argue that at 100 yards they are 'pushing the envelope' or risking harming animals more than they would with a rifle. Many rifles only have an effective range of about 130 -150 yards (44 carbine, heavy bullets in a 30-30 - the 35 remington, etc.)
 
Foxer said:
Well - that's always the goal isn't it :)

That's not really different than a bow, or single shot rifle. It's always better to make your first shot count than count on a second shot.

Again - thinking from a 'selling the idea' point of view, it is to our advantage to demonstrate that 'ethical handgun hunters' take every step reasonable to ensure their first shot is lethal, just like with a rifle. There's no intent to 'spray and pray'. The more we foster the idea that 'handgun hunting is STILL one shot one kill' the better. Sure, things go wrong (they do with rifles too) but the ACHIEVABLE goal is to put a fatal round in the animal as often and as regularly as one would expect with a rifle.

.)

Not just that, it is sportier to me than rifle hunting. Why? Because simple fact that you must get much closer to the animal to ensure that one shoot kill. To do that you have to outsmart animal, and it is not easy think to do. Therefore animal has a grater chance against HG hunter than R hunter. Sniper-ing elk from a blind at 250-300 yards is les challenging indeed.
Many so-called HGH will quit whole idea and go back to rifle sooner than they really started, and only those who really like that kind of challenge will pursue it. Therefore I do not see flood of HG in our forests neither many more wounded game.
Self-protection in very remote areas is also very valid sale point whether you are a hunter, fisherman, prospector or who ever else, if they still interested to listen to those arguments?
 
Not just that, it is sportier to me than rifle hunting. Why? Because simple fact that you must get much closer to the animal to ensure that one shoot kill. To do that you have to outsmart animal, and it is not easy think to do.

Well - to be perfectly honest while i can see your point I'm not sure it's of much help when we're discussing it with other people per se. I've heard it said, and the immediate answer is 'so use a rifle and don't shoot till you're close'. Heck, use a smoothbore sluggun, you're limited to even less range. There's no point to a pistol just to keep your range short.

A BETTER way to phrase that argument might be "On some hunts, I decide that to REALLY preserve the concept of 'fair chase' and choose to limit my shots to no more than 100 yards (or whatever). I feel doing this really forces me to understand the animal and to perfect my stalking, tracking and scouting skills. On THOSE occasions I find a pistol is a BETTER CHOICE for me than a rifle, because it's easier to work with, easier to carry and is more than adequate for the ranges I've chosen so I don't have any use for any 'more' range or power. I find that i can better focus on the animal and the environment instead of focusing on the gun every time i bend down to look at tracks and have the thing swinging around on my back.

In fact, in some ways a pistol is safer in those cases - when you're really stalking up to something or constantly kneeling down to examine tracks or sign, a pistol is ALWAYS 100 percent in control on your body, and is inherently pointing in a safe direction (down). You won't have to worry about laying it down and getting debris in the barrel. Whereas a rifle even with a good sling is always wiggling around a little, and unless it's in your hands it's more difficult to control, and the barrel tends to point all kinds of directions.

So for the scout or stalker who's really working his skill, Even a large 'purpose built' hunting pistol with a scope is a lot easier and safer to carry than a rifle, and has more than enough power to do the job within the range limitations that the hunter has ALREADY set for himself.

In short - the pistol doesn't make me limit my range, i've chosen to limit my range, so i might as well take a pistol because it's a better choice in those conditions.
Self-protection in very remote areas is also very valid sale point whether you are a hunter, fisherman, prospector or who ever else, if they still interested to listen to those arguments?

To the hunting community, they'll 'get' that. The gov't would need to be approached intentionally and aggressively on that point specifically to make it fly, or they'll just get 'concerned'. Federally there's an angle there, provincially we'd likely want to focus on the hunting element.

Provincially, as much as i hate to say it, it may be necessary to go with something like an additional license for handguns. That is an out and out bribe. Hey mr province - you can make an additional 15 bucks per resident and 70 bucks per non-resident offering a handgun 'tag' to a hunting license. And maybe some other thing like 'must have liability insurance' - which we all get free with our BCWF memberships anyway.

We could probably show they'd make something like an extra 100,000 a year for essentially doing nothing, and the guide outfitters will make more money and pay more taxes. Heck, it'll buy another conservation officer, or pay for another scientist, or whatever. We KNOW the bc gov't is looking for ways to increase their revenues from hunting.

We can say it has all kinds of 'benefits' - keeps people who aren't serious out of the woods, lets them count how many handgun hunters there are, etc etc etc. Whatever. The bcwf will get 'excited' about the 'need for insurance' - it may help boost memberships.
 
IMHO all these issue could be put to rest by simply adding a practical live fire qualification component to the existing hunting courses.
 
handguns for hunting

I am all for it. It would convince other members of society that people with HGs are okay and not a bunch of nut jobs. On a purely selfish note I do a lot of fishing in bear / wolverine and bobcat /wolf country. I usually carry a 30-30 but it is a pain in the butt.
 
petriw said:
I am all for it. It would convince other members of society that people with HGs are okay and not a bunch of nut jobs. On a purely selfish note I do a lot of fishing in bear / wolverine and bobcat /wolf country. I usually carry a 30-30 but it is a pain in the butt.
That's really where handguns come into their own. They are practical to carry in those situations and as such, a tool of opportunity.
 
I just spent 2+ hours reading this whole thread, again. Just to refresh.

I have a question, and maybe the answer eludes me because it's late, or maybe my brain turned to mush after reading the whole thing.

Why do we have to appeal to anyone else (long gun hunters) other than those who want to hunt with handguns? :confused: Other minorities (for a lack of a better word)get their way by demanding that they be heard, demanding that they be given certain rights and demanding that they not be dismissed! They don't care what others think because it's irrelevent to what they believe! So why do we have to cower in the corner, buying time and begging for support? Why aren't we demanding that we be allowed to hunt with handguns?
 
joe-nwt said:
I just spent 2+ hours reading this whole thread, again. Just to refresh.

I have a question, and maybe the answer eludes me because it's late, or maybe my brain turned to mush after reading the whole thing.

Why do we have to appeal to anyone else (long gun hunters) other than those who want to hunt with handguns? :confused: Other minorities (for a lack of a better word)get their way by demanding that they be heard, demanding that they be given certain rights and demanding that they not be dismissed! They don't care what others think because it's irrelevent to what they believe! So why do we have to cower in the corner, buying time and begging for support? Why aren't we demanding that we be allowed to hunt with handguns?


Best post so far!
I like the attitude:rockOn:
 
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