Hard choice and need help.. IWI tavor tar 21 or H&K SL8-4

mr.fatstacks said:
OP, just a head's up, I saw an SL8 on the EE today with the Hera conversion and ACR stock for $2400+shipping.

(edited)
PS, Where'd you see the low profile rail for $99?
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Thanks for the head's up but I am currently deployed and will be buying when I will get back home in October. I have to sell a few guns prior to buy the new one. Already spoken for so it should be quick upon my return... hopefully, my buddy will not change his mind by then...

Look at your PMs for info on the rail.
 
Operation cast lead, first reasonably neutral source I found:

http://imeu.net/news/article0021968.shtml

CASUALTIES

Reports of the exact number of Palestinians killed vary, but casualty figures supplied by credible independent nongovernmental organizations are generally consistent.

The Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights reported that the offensive left 1,419 Palestinians dead, including 1,167 civilians. The Centre also reported more than 5,000 Palestinians wounded, as did the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem reported 1,385 Palestinians killed, including 762 noncombatants, and 318 minors under the age of 18.

Officially, local authorities in Gaza put the total Palestinian fatalities at 1,444. For its part, the Israeli government claimed that 1,166 Palestinians were killed, including 709 combatants.

According to Israeli authorities, three Israeli civilians and one soldier were killed by rockets fired from Gaza during Cast Lead. Nine Israeli soldiers also died in combat in Gaza, including four killed by friendly fire. According to the UN, 518 Israelis were wounded.

So Israelis killed 1 Israelis less than Palestinians did in combat. What was the ratio of civilians to combatants? Is that about 90 kids and 200 civilians killed per Israeli soldier killed?. Some battle. That's one lean mean battle proven fighting machine. Really impressive heritage and an outstanding brand image. I will think about how my potential purchase will help them to support their good work.

Thanks for enlightening me.
 
drifter dave said:
Dude you've missed a couple of Sl8's for $1700-$1800 on the EE recently.


You're kidding, right?
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No not really, I'm new to guns and not sure about a lot of slang terms, internet qualifications, short-hand and other various nomenclature. I'm still looking to make a lot of purchases and following threads of people making purchase decisions is a good source of knowledge.

He made a claim, I wanted to see what he meant. Not really sure why I would be kidding to ask that.
 
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Would you like an apple in .223 or an orange?
 
gunnut604 said:
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Would you like an apple in .223 or an orange?
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Thanks for the pictures. I do really appreciate seing both next to each other.. But, when I red what you wrote down, I was more expecting I like this one over that one for that purpose and reasons than being offered apples and oranges. Can you please tell me what do you like/dislike about both platforms and why...

I'm not bashing you, just looking for an input on both platforms. I know they are both really different from each other.. this is why I started this thread...

Thanks for the help.
 
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yan014 said:
Thanks for the pictures. I do really appreciate seing both next to each other.. But, when I red what you wrote down, I was more expecting I like this one over that one for that purpose and reasons than being offered apples and oranges. Can you please tell me what do you like/dislike about both platforms and why...

I'm not bashing you, just looking for an input on both platforms. I know they are both really different from each other.. this is why I started this thread...

Thanks for the help.
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I think as the old cliche goes a picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the way they are setup. Exactly as others on here have been posting. Look at the scope choices and the fact one has a bipod. Should tell you everything right there in terms of use and purpose.
 
Epoxy7 said:
I think as the old cliche goes a picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the way they are setup. Exactly as others on here have been posting. Look at the scope choices and the fact one has a bipod. Should tell you everything right there in terms of use and purpose.
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Hi Epoxy7,

Indeed, s picture is worth 1000 words and more, I did looked at the way they are set up. But, I also want to know how they perform from a first hand shooter. Everyone have a different perception, ok, I'm fine with that. I'd like to know their strength and weakness if you know what I mean. Especially from someone who owns both firearms.
 
yan014 said:
Hi Epoxy7,

Indeed, s picture is worth 1000 words and more, I did looked at the way they are set up. But, I also want to know how they perform from a first hand shooter. Everyone have a different perception, ok, I'm fine with that. I'd like to know their strength and weakness if you know what I mean. Especially from someone who owns both firearms.
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I own one and have shot both. Including both from a bench and both off hand. The thumbhole stock relegates the SL8 to a bench/prone target/varmint gun. If you're willing to pay the price to get rid of it then things change. The problem is price. The ergonomics on both are decent but the Tavor is better. The trigger goes to the SL8. Mag changes depend. If you pay more for the AR mag stuff with a better positioned mag release then it's about the same. If not then it's slower with the SL8 over the Tavor. Personally I'd stick with the regular SL8 system and mags rather than go Stanag mags with it.

Which one do I prefer shooting? Without a bipod and in standing, kneeling or prone the Tavor. For quick shots the Tavor. For aimed careful shots the SL8. Put an Eotech and a magpul vertical grip on the SL8 and it handles ok. Especially if you can get rid of the thumbhole stock. The Tavor however is fast right out of the box, a lot shorter and easier to hold on target. You can effectively fire a Tavor with one hand.

Bottom line, the SL8 is a money pit. It's an excellent rifle from the 1980s. If it were in G36 form then it would be a different ballgame. The Tavor is a 21st century firearm in it's proper configuration other than full auto while the SL8 is a G36 turned into a varmint rifle.With the Tavor Ergos are good. Very good in fact and overall better than the SL8. The SL8 is more accurate though.

If you have any plans of changing the SL8 to something else then just buy the something else. It will work out to the same price in the end or more. If you are handy and can get rid of the thumbhole grip then it can be usefull off hand but it's still primarily a bench/target varmint rifle. The Tavor isn't a bench target rifle.
 
Hey Yan014,
Just wondering what kind of distance you were hoping to shoot. In and around the 150 yard mark both would leave a field of dead gophers.

With the sl8 I have a much harder time keeping it on target from a standing/kneeling position. Rest it on a bench or shoot from the prone position and its a laser.
With the tavor target acquisition is effortless and instinctive in the standing/kneeling position. Weight of the rifle is very well balanced and feels like an extension of your arm.

If I had to carry one all day I would definitely choose the tavor. Put a one-point bungee sling on it and one hand on the handgrip for easy transport. And yes, one handed operation is very possible with the tavor.
 
gunnut604 said:
Hey Yan014,
Just wondering what kind of distance you were hoping to shoot. In and around the 150 yard mark both would leave a field of dead gophers.

With the sl8 I have a much harder time keeping it on target from a standing/kneeling position. Rest it on a bench or shoot from the prone position and its a laser.
With the tavor target acquisition is effortless and instinctive in the standing/kneeling position. Weight of the rifle is very well balanced and feels like an extension of your arm.

If I had to carry one all day I would definitely choose the tavor. Put a one-point bungee sling on it and one hand on the handgrip for easy transport. And yes, one handed operation is very possible with the tavor.
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At about that.. 150-200 yards... But so far, from what I've seen, I'll have to start with one rifle and buy the other one down the road... dammit! And also, whenever I shoot in a field, I go prone whenever it is possible or I rest on the ATV/truck... sure shot and don't want to have a wounded animal screaming and in pain till I place another shot into it...

Thanks for the input, they're truly appreciated!
 
No not really, I'm new to guns and not sure about a lot of slang terms, internet qualifications, short-hand and other various nomenclature. I'm still looking to make a lot of purchases and following threads of people making purchase decisions is a good source of knowledge.

He made a claim, I wanted to see what he meant. Not really sure why I would be kidding to ask that.
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If you do a bit of searching you will see that the Tavor is the main battle rifle of the IDF for several years now - they are one of the most active militaries around. Asking if the Tavor is battle proven is like asking if Ford makes pickup trucks.

Try this:

https://www.google.ca/
 
I have both (bought the SL8 on a whim a few years ago and just got the Tavor) - but if you're looking for a hunting type setup - the Tavor is the way I would go as it would be easier to get around in the bush with it's Bullpup setup. The SL8 - a beautiful rifle (in my opinion) is not made for this type of "work" as it is front heavy and not nearly as maneuverable in the great outdoors.
Hope this helps!
 
drifter dave said:
If you do a bit of searching you will see that the Tavor is the main battle rifle of the IDF for several years now - they are one of the most active militaries around. Asking if the Tavor is battle proven is like asking if Ford makes pickup trucks.

Try this:

https://www.google.ca/
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Battle Proven implies some kind of real world combat experience showing a history of being I guess reliable and effective in what it was designed for that would make it appropriate for trusting your life on in combat I would assume. Looking at his justification for this claim shows absolutely no proof it is at all suitable for battle, unless you are in battle with someone that has the same gun as you, unarmed civilians or perhaps children. From what I can see there was no real ground "battle" at all in Operation Cast Lead as the vast majority of casualties listed are civilian, and the biggest single source of casualties not listed as civilians was a graduation ceremony at the Police academy that the Israelis bombed. Not exactly a battle either.

Your analogy is terrible. It's more like asking if Ford makes pickup trucks that are proven to be suitable to a specific task and having empirical data as a premise to your conclusion. Israeli soldiers using an Israeli gun, that no one else is using from what I can see is by no means proof of it's quality or effectiveness.

Sorry to be off topic, I'm out of this thread.

My apologies.
 
Actually quite a few countries use the Tavor in some capacity, including the Vietnamese, Indian, Ukrainian, Georgian, Portuguese and Columbian special forces.

For a relatively new design it's been pretty widely accepted, and should have a decent amount of operational experience under its belt at this point.
 
Breitling604 said:
Battle Proven implies some kind of real world combat experience showing a history of being I guess reliable and effective in what it was designed for that would make it appropriate for trusting your life on in combat I would assume. Looking at his justification for this claim shows absolutely no proof it is at all suitable for battle, unless you are in battle with someone that has the same gun as you, unarmed civilians or perhaps children. From what I can see there was no real ground "battle" at all in Operation Cast Lead as the vast majority of casualties listed are civilian, and the biggest single source of casualties not listed as civilians was a graduation ceremony at the Police academy that the Israelis bombed. Not exactly a battle either.

Your analogy is terrible. It's more like asking if Ford makes pickup trucks that are proven to be suitable to a specific task and having empirical data as a premise to your conclusion. Israeli soldiers using an Israeli gun, that no one else is using from what I can see is by no means proof of it's quality or effectiveness.

Sorry to be off topic, I'm out of this thread.

My apologies.
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Israeli gun that they replaced the M4 with. You don't replace the M4 with crap no matter how the politics are. It's known as the bullpup AK and has been thoroughly tested including in combat.

Notable military using the Tavor or TAR21 as its also called. There are many others using them as specialty weapons for certain groups and or police. These listed below are integrating them as their service rifle.

1) Israel
2) Georgia
3) India
4) Thailand
 
Between the two, I would chose the Tavor. It is light and responsive to the shoot-and-scoot type of firing. IF I could chose and have my pick, and have it legal, I would take an SKS with the SG Works bull-pup conversion. Inexpensive to make, fun to shoot. But it is prohibited here.
 
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