Having to fit a bolt- whatre my chances?
- Thread starter GunNewb
- Start date
Gen II bolt won't fit without lots of lapping on the newer Norinco M305's. This is not advised as you will have to lap the bolt beyond the hardened surface of the metal. You can't ream the chamber because it's chrome lined. Only way this works is if your fitting a new non-chrome barrel and can ream the barrel to avoid the need to over-lap the bolt.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Of course the headspace is loose lol It's a sloppy battle rifle.
Have you even fired the rifle yet?
I'll bet it shoots just fine.
Have you even fired the rifle yet?
I'll bet it shoots just fine.
shoots 7.62 yeah. havent tried any 308 in it and thatll be its entire diet pretty much. trying to figure if its worth it to go whole hog. Dont know whether I should do barrel or bolt.
I mean if the headspace is well over 308 NO GO dimensions then it should be unsafe, right?
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You could park a car in my 305's headspace, and it shoots both 7.62 and 308 with no problems at all.
Had Hungry check it at a clinic and all is well, they are just looser than goose
, but well over 1500 rounds thruogh it and no problems 
Shoot the bugger till it wears out and buy a couple more, Im guessing that the bolt would cost nearly as much as a new 305.
But thats only what I would do.
I think most pple are feeding the things 308 and a whole load of pple are reloading 308, and getting some amazing results. Dont recall hearing of any catastrophic failures.
Had Hungry check it at a clinic and all is well, they are just looser than goose
, but well over 1500 rounds thruogh it and no problems Shoot the bugger till it wears out and buy a couple more, Im guessing that the bolt would cost nearly as much as a new 305.
But thats only what I would do.
I think most pple are feeding the things 308 and a whole load of pple are reloading 308, and getting some amazing results. Dont recall hearing of any catastrophic failures.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
I never even checked the headspace on mine.
I have fired many many a round of both 7.62 surplus/Norc and a lot of rounds of standard commercial 165 gr .308 Win.
The .308 Win shot better than the surplus/cheap stuff by far in my stock Norc.
People tend to read a little too much into these rifles in my opinion. It's not a space shuttle, it's a cheap, sturdy battle rifle.
Mine is stock condition other than the rear sights and the Boyds walnut stock.
It shoots good commercial .308 Win into 1.5-2" groups easily at 100 meters if I take my time.
With hand loads it would probably be even more consistant although it probably wouldn't shrink my groups all that much.
You probably don't need a crazy expensive bolt, then have to lap it to fit or something and waste time, money and stress.
If you were looking for a precision shooting .308 Win you picked the wrong platform right off the bat lol
You could have spent another $300-400 on a solid M700 bolt gun in the same caliber and had a precision hand loading machine.
These are all just my personal opinions of course and you may do as you wish with your rifle and money.
If you want my personal opinion/advice, be wary of chasing ghosts with the M14, it's a time consuming and expensive journey for not a lot of results in cost comparison to what you could have had to begin with buying a different rifle right off the bat.
1.641" is not the end of the world.
Typical of norinco rifles that came in 2007 and before. Starting with the 2009 imports, we saw average headspace values in these rifles drop to an average 1.638"
Any knowledgeable M14 smith will tell you... This shrink in headspace is a "good" thing.
My advice to those with chambers above 1.640" , and using .308 commercial brassed loads is to inspect brass occasionally for chamber/headspace related issues.
If all is good, don't sweat it.
The high end bolts are out there mainly for guys building up a rifle... Or for guys like me that like tight chambers on the rifles they build. 1.641" is not a chamber I'd be happy with BUT unless your brass is telling you to be concerned.... You shouldn't be.
Typical of norinco rifles that came in 2007 and before. Starting with the 2009 imports, we saw average headspace values in these rifles drop to an average 1.638"
Any knowledgeable M14 smith will tell you... This shrink in headspace is a "good" thing.
My advice to those with chambers above 1.640" , and using .308 commercial brassed loads is to inspect brass occasionally for chamber/headspace related issues.
If all is good, don't sweat it.
The high end bolts are out there mainly for guys building up a rifle... Or for guys like me that like tight chambers on the rifles they build. 1.641" is not a chamber I'd be happy with BUT unless your brass is telling you to be concerned.... You shouldn't be.
Texas, with all due respect, those are some pretty broad statements which, without seeing his particular rifle or the proposed bolt, is pretty bold. When I replaced my bolt with a 7.62 bolt, I had to do some lapping. Reaming the chamber was not necessary as the new bolt and existing chamber was well within SAAMI spec for 308. My Norc receiver was very hardened metal, as was the bolt, so lapping was a bit of a pain.
To GunNewb :
Like 45ACP, I decided to tighten up the headspace due to the fact that I reload my brass and shoot commercial exclusively. I had to painstakingly undergo a fairly rigid process of lap/measure/lap/measure/fit/measure to ensure that I was not removing excessive metal. Just like when one laps valves on a cylinder head.
The other issue I had was with the trigger hammer, in process of installing the bolt, I also needed to lap the bolt and the hammer due to excessive friction as the hammer was also slightly out of spec. The bolt would jam up onto the hammer. I and had new USGI springs. All is good now - the two parts just needed to be fitted properly.
All-in-all, on my rebuild, the lapping compound was my friend. A major word of caution I have for you is that unless you have some experience with lapping valves or other metal surfaces, do not attempt this procedure. It will be quite easy to "overdo" it and really screw things up for yourself - that and you would have wasted your money both on the rifle and a bolt. Once you go down the path with fitting the new bolt, there is no turning back. If you screw it up - you will not likely be able to back to the old bolt. You need a well calibrated vernier and micrometer. I used M14 bolt drawings as my reference for bolt specs. Even my new bolt had some errors when compared to the US drawings.
The bottom line is that unless you have some gunsmithing, machining, automotive or other experience working with parts and very tight tolerances, this may not be the wisest "first time" project to undertake. It's not really a complicated process - just tedious and you have to be fully aware and understanding of what you are doing.
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Ok so just a question. because i keep hearing everyone talking about head space with reloads.
If your reloading .308 WIN and your case length is within spec Trim length of 2.005" and max length of 2.015" as long as you are within those specs with you cases you should be fine when it comes to head space corect?
Asumming headspace on the riffle is within spec
If your reloading .308 WIN and your case length is within spec Trim length of 2.005" and max length of 2.015" as long as you are within those specs with you cases you should be fine when it comes to head space corect?
Asumming headspace on the riffle is within spec
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
So in your opinion, the best way to get a tack driving, hand loaded, precision rifle is to buy a cheap roughly made battle rifle with purposely designed loose tolerances for $400 and then drop thousands more dollars on it and untold amounts of time and effort to turn it into something it was never designed to be?
lol
I'm not a reloading expert by any means so will not try to give advice here. Guys like Oldsmobiler are full of solid user experienced info for reloading M14 ammo.
Headspace is not a measure of overall case length. It is the measurement from the bolt face to the datum line of the chamber.
For the average M1A/M14S owner/shooter, worrying to much about headspace can take you down a road of frustration. So many threads on this and even more "opinions" LOL
Bottom line, inspect your brass once in a while.
Watch for signs of pressure. Backed out primers, primer flow, pierced primers, bulging bottom 1/3 of case and so on.
Seeing any of these signs will tell you that a) you have crappy ammo, or b) your rifle's headspace needs a looking at.
As an m14 smith , I do caution folks with higher than 1.640 headspace to use quality .308 ammo and 7.62 nato spec ammo only.
I also suggest these folks inspect their .308 brass frequently.
But, it's yer ####, attach what value to it.... And my advice.... As you see fit
Headspace is not a measure of overall case length. It is the measurement from the bolt face to the datum line of the chamber.
For the average M1A/M14S owner/shooter, worrying to much about headspace can take you down a road of frustration. So many threads on this and even more "opinions" LOL
Bottom line, inspect your brass once in a while.
Watch for signs of pressure. Backed out primers, primer flow, pierced primers, bulging bottom 1/3 of case and so on.
Seeing any of these signs will tell you that a) you have crappy ammo, or b) your rifle's headspace needs a looking at.
As an m14 smith , I do caution folks with higher than 1.640 headspace to use quality .308 ammo and 7.62 nato spec ammo only.
I also suggest these folks inspect their .308 brass frequently.
But, it's yer ####, attach what value to it.... And my advice.... As you see fit
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Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Your trim to length is 2.005 to 2.015, I find the best accuracy comes around 2.009 for my 2007 norinco. If your brass gets too long, say 2.022 or something, you could nip the tip of your brass in the lands area of the gun and create excess pressures on firing, which could give you a gimpy hand and/or forearm. Headspaces has nothing to do with this really, it's the amount of space that the cartridge has to jump forward when the firing pin hits it. The cartridge case then expands into the chamber, and the head of the case expands back to the bolt face. The more headspace you have, the more your brass is going to stretch, and eventually (after a few shots, sometimes just one) you will have case / head separation.
Now picture what would happen if a new cartridge is riding the bolt, and about to slam into the chamber with a stuck casing in there.
The sloppy chamber is what allows you to reload these rifles with a neck sizing die. I have done this many times and it's pretty awesome because it stops this excessive case wear from happening as hard and it's just less work overall to neck size.
I have a 1.639 chamber and my rifle shoots decently, about 1.5-2 inches all day, maybe less now with the mods I have done to it. I find the chump ass 2009 poly's usually don't shoot this well, so I'm glad I bought what I bought, even if it has a myriad of QC issues. If you look at the bright side though, at least I learned how to fix this stuff.
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@travis- yeah I could buy a bolt gun if I wanted to. then id be on the bolt gun forum.....
@sobo- interesting. Im technically competent but not skilled. Id definitely have to ponder that one + cost. I bought this rifle with the intention of pimping it (I had a stock norinco and wasnt very into it and sold it quickly) so viewing it as a $420 quality receiver all is good.
@45acpking- good to hear realistic expectations! Well- there prolly aint much wrong with this bolt. I wouldnt mind throwing a standard profile non-chrome barrel on this thing though anyway. Is this an effective way to change the headspace as well? Like when I get it rebarreled will the smith be able to tighten things up on the chamber end?
r
Though I hear that these norinco barrels are alright and my crown looks decent anyways. In general for cost/benefit is it better to rebarrel or throw on another bolt?
@sobo- interesting. Im technically competent but not skilled. Id definitely have to ponder that one + cost. I bought this rifle with the intention of pimping it (I had a stock norinco and wasnt very into it and sold it quickly) so viewing it as a $420 quality receiver all is good.
@45acpking- good to hear realistic expectations! Well- there prolly aint much wrong with this bolt. I wouldnt mind throwing a standard profile non-chrome barrel on this thing though anyway. Is this an effective way to change the headspace as well? Like when I get it rebarreled will the smith be able to tighten things up on the chamber end?
r
Though I hear that these norinco barrels are alright and my crown looks decent anyways. In general for cost/benefit is it better to rebarrel or throw on another bolt?
I install match barrels with short chambers frequently and in most but not all cases, have had good success combining a short chambered match barrel with the existing chinese bolt.
I'm not aware of any standard profile short chambered barrels availlable to us. Criterion is all that is availlable in that regard and I was under the impression these are chrome lined. Without a very specialized reamer, recutting a chrome lined chamber is not possible nor is it recommended.
Changing the barrel will absolutely affect headspace. What degree and which direction, there's no way to predict until you thread on the barrel.
So it's a tough one.
Staying with a chrome lined barrel, and wanting to tighten headspace, install a tighter fittting bolt and lap to final desired headspace.
Going with existing bolt, a short chamber barrel would be required and this is then finished reamed to final desired headspace.
Confused yet?
I'm not aware of any standard profile short chambered barrels availlable to us. Criterion is all that is availlable in that regard and I was under the impression these are chrome lined. Without a very specialized reamer, recutting a chrome lined chamber is not possible nor is it recommended.
Changing the barrel will absolutely affect headspace. What degree and which direction, there's no way to predict until you thread on the barrel.
So it's a tough one.
Staying with a chrome lined barrel, and wanting to tighten headspace, install a tighter fittting bolt and lap to final desired headspace.
Going with existing bolt, a short chamber barrel would be required and this is then finished reamed to final desired headspace.
Confused yet?
I tested a Gen II bolt on about 15 different 2009 to 2011 M305's. You could not even get the bolt to begin to rotate into battery on all but 1 of them. Therefore, in my experience, the original poster has about a 7% chance of this working properly. I stand behind what I said in terms of not wanting to over-lap the bolt to make it fit. If the bolt won't even begin to rotate into battery, then I would not advise lapping it enough to make it fit. Therefore I wouldn't advise going this route based upon my experience. Just my opinion
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I tested a Gen II bolt on about 15 different 2009 to 2011 M305's. You could not even get the bolt to begin to rotate into battery on all but 1 of them. Therefore, in my experience, the original poster has about a 7% chance of this working properly. I stand behind what I said in terms of not wanting to over-lap the bolt to make it fit. If the bolt won't even begin to rotate into battery, then I would not advise lapping it enough to make it fit. Therefore I wouldn't advise going this route based upon my experience. Just my opinion
Based on the findings you've posted here, I would absolutely agree with you. Was that bolt at last summer's clinic in my backyard?
On that note, if I'm trial fitting say , used usgi bolts to a barrelled action (chinese, springfield, lrb), and the bolt I wanna use shows less than 1/4 engagement in the lugs.... I don't even think about lapping that bolt in.
Jerry Kuhnhaussen, 30 cal service rifle shop manual.
Before you go trying to do "smith" work to an m1A or M14, you should have that book in your hands.
Internet PDF's and posts by folks just don't give you the big picture on what's going on when fitting barrels, bolts or messing with triggers
