There was no crapping lot that "got through". The powder was fine when purchased and he used it. It broke down over time, and has nothing to do with Higginson's. It could have came from any retailer and had the same outcome after 10 years...Not all powders will have a 50 year shelf life...
HEAD'S UP!!!! Higginson's OEM 4350 [N160] powder deterioration.
- Thread starter Eagleye
- Start date
There was no crapping lot that "got through". The powder was fine when purchased and he used it. It broke down over time, and has nothing to do with Higginson's. It could have came from any retailer and had the same outcome after 10 years...Not all powders will have a 50 year shelf life...
Ammomart 44 was the king of the fireballs out of a contender pistol.....
I just used the last of mine about 2 years ago.
It was a great powder in everything from 222 to 375 H&H. I burned many, many, pounds of it. Used the last of mine about the same time. Buy it anytime I can find it, and never seen any deterioration.
Ted
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
Blarg: Powders don't have a short shelf life (stored in proper conditions) - sorry but if a powder completely breaks down and goes "acidic" stored in appropriate conditions in 10 years, say even less then 15 years, is IMO a bad lot. Every reloading manual I have mentions that powders stored in good conditions will last indefinitely. As a side note, I have no issue with Higginson I think they are one of the best retailers for powder/primer/bullets and you are right any retailer could have let this lot through.
Exactly. No way in knowing how old it was before they got it. IIRC Higginson's (Ammomart in those days) specialized in mil. surp. powders. Who knows from what bunker or for that matter, recycled from artillery shells it came from. Even Korean war era stuff is closing in on 60 years.
IN NO WAY DO I BLAME HIGGINSON"S
I also mentioned to eagleye that I had a lot of #44 go bad at one time. At the same time I mentioned the OEM4350. I bought my powder a little earlier than eagleye, about 1995.
I had a bunch of 338-06 loaded with this powder and pulled the bullets to check it out. The powder had corroded the inside of the case and the base of the bullets as well.
As for the #44 powder, I to really liked it. I had a few hundred rounds of 257Rob loaded up for a Winchester Featherweight. I used the rifle in the fall, cleaned and stored it. For the Christmas turkey shoot, I took it out as it was very accurate with 87 grn Remingtons. It shot all over the paper and some rounds sounded quite weak.
I thought there might be a scope mount problem and just shrugged it off. Because of the rigors of the season, I didn't clean the rifle immediately. I actually didn't get to it until after the new year. The bore was rusty, very rusty to be honest. It was so rusty that it wasn't savable.
At the time this happened, I called Tom Higginson about it and he verified that he had a few complaints about the powder. He offered to replace it with another powder and did so on my next order. Tom ran a class act at AmmoMart and I have no complaints whatsoever. I had bought the powder in 1981 and this was 15 years later. It was sold as Nobel #44 surplus milspec powder, equivalent to IMR3031. It was very good powder and functioned properly for a long time. Tom didn't have to replace the powder and I really didn't either ask or expect him to. He just did it, no questions asked and apologised for the barrel. He also sent me a 7lb container of WC845 and asked me to work up some loads and send him the results. NO CHARGE. I HAVE NO COMPLAINTS WITH HIGGINSON'S, not then or now.
This thread was started as a heads up for people that bought OEM4350, nothing else. Powder can and does go bad. I bought a half dozen cans of IMR4064 from a now defunct shop in Kelowna, two weeks later, when I opened the first can, the powder was rusty and pungent smelling, the inside of the can was also rusty. Took them back and the dealer graciously replaced them with a different lot of the same powder. He gave them back to his distributor, I don't know what came of it.
Eagleye was right to post this warning. He was in no way implying that Higginson's was at fault or knowingly sold inferior products. Read his posts carefully and bring your emotions down to a relative level. He did a good thing here, be grateful for it. Especially if you have some of that powder still around.
I also mentioned to eagleye that I had a lot of #44 go bad at one time. At the same time I mentioned the OEM4350. I bought my powder a little earlier than eagleye, about 1995.
I had a bunch of 338-06 loaded with this powder and pulled the bullets to check it out. The powder had corroded the inside of the case and the base of the bullets as well.
As for the #44 powder, I to really liked it. I had a few hundred rounds of 257Rob loaded up for a Winchester Featherweight. I used the rifle in the fall, cleaned and stored it. For the Christmas turkey shoot, I took it out as it was very accurate with 87 grn Remingtons. It shot all over the paper and some rounds sounded quite weak.
I thought there might be a scope mount problem and just shrugged it off. Because of the rigors of the season, I didn't clean the rifle immediately. I actually didn't get to it until after the new year. The bore was rusty, very rusty to be honest. It was so rusty that it wasn't savable.
At the time this happened, I called Tom Higginson about it and he verified that he had a few complaints about the powder. He offered to replace it with another powder and did so on my next order. Tom ran a class act at AmmoMart and I have no complaints whatsoever. I had bought the powder in 1981 and this was 15 years later. It was sold as Nobel #44 surplus milspec powder, equivalent to IMR3031. It was very good powder and functioned properly for a long time. Tom didn't have to replace the powder and I really didn't either ask or expect him to. He just did it, no questions asked and apologised for the barrel. He also sent me a 7lb container of WC845 and asked me to work up some loads and send him the results. NO CHARGE. I HAVE NO COMPLAINTS WITH HIGGINSON'S, not then or now.
This thread was started as a heads up for people that bought OEM4350, nothing else. Powder can and does go bad. I bought a half dozen cans of IMR4064 from a now defunct shop in Kelowna, two weeks later, when I opened the first can, the powder was rusty and pungent smelling, the inside of the can was also rusty. Took them back and the dealer graciously replaced them with a different lot of the same powder. He gave them back to his distributor, I don't know what came of it.
Eagleye was right to post this warning. He was in no way implying that Higginson's was at fault or knowingly sold inferior products. Read his posts carefully and bring your emotions down to a relative level. He did a good thing here, be grateful for it. Especially if you have some of that powder still around.
That powder may have been from the post war surplus era. May have been improperly stored even before old Higginson got it. Transported several times etc. I have about 40 lb. of the same stuff, been here for 30+ yr. in a cardboard keg. seems fine. Worhing on my second one. Got mine in Washigton Sate.
As previously stated has nothing to do with where it was bought. I think it's best left in the cardboard. Mark
As previously stated has nothing to do with where it was bought. I think it's best left in the cardboard. Mark
- Location
- Saskatchewan
A good heads up, thanks.
For you guys with a quick fuse, give your heads a shake. The guy is not out flaming the company, he just wanted to let us know about a potential problem.
Maybe this is why they discontinued the powder, bad shelf life?
For you guys with a quick fuse, give your heads a shake. The guy is not out flaming the company, he just wanted to let us know about a potential problem.
Maybe this is why they discontinued the powder, bad shelf life?
They just ran out of it actually - it was sold quite a few years ago.
A good and appropriate post that no matter how it was worded, would get the highly strung crowd into panic mode (as they are prone), thinking that they were in danger if they are using powders sold by Higginsons.
Higginsons - solid company with an excellent product.
Powder - can go bad. More likely as it ages. Know the signs and check before using.
The powder in question is NOT 4350.
Many have indicated they thought it was Viht N-160 in a very old bulk form, I concur.
It was originally maketed as OEM 4350 - N160 type. In the many pounds I burned up, it certainly acted very close to what canister lots of N160 did. Of course, I would not unequivocally say that it was N160, only that it was very close in characteristics to N160.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Did you read my post?
It was in support of yours.
peterdobson. Did you ever deal with Tom Higginson?
I'm not flaming you in any way either. Tom knew more about propellants than any other person I have met. He was well respected by producers and commercial loaders all over North America. He acquired huge supplies of powder and explosives for many types of people and uses. He was a middle man between the largest brokers and the small sales outlets etc. I think you get my point.
I talked to Tom on the phone a lot over the years I dealt with him and he was a stand up guy. I last spoke to him only a month or so before his passing from cancer. He was worried that the government was going to shut down hand loaders and fought tooth and nail right up to his last breath for us. This is just to let you understand the man a bit more and his integrity.
When I bought the OEM4350 from Tom, he told me that the powder was an over run from a large European order of N160 that he had bid on and won. He also told me that Norma wouldn't let him sell it as N160 because of legal issues. He was allowed to mention that OEM4350 had a similar burning rate and the same characteristics as N160.
I'm not flaming you in any way either. Tom knew more about propellants than any other person I have met. He was well respected by producers and commercial loaders all over North America. He acquired huge supplies of powder and explosives for many types of people and uses. He was a middle man between the largest brokers and the small sales outlets etc. I think you get my point.
I talked to Tom on the phone a lot over the years I dealt with him and he was a stand up guy. I last spoke to him only a month or so before his passing from cancer. He was worried that the government was going to shut down hand loaders and fought tooth and nail right up to his last breath for us. This is just to let you understand the man a bit more and his integrity.
When I bought the OEM4350 from Tom, he told me that the powder was an over run from a large European order of N160 that he had bid on and won. He also told me that Norma wouldn't let him sell it as N160 because of legal issues. He was allowed to mention that OEM4350 had a similar burning rate and the same characteristics as N160.
bearhunter, yes, I dealt with Tom and liked him and also his nephew, who continues to run a good business. However, Norma, Sweden, never made N160, as this is a Finnish product by VihtaVuori and they are unrelated. So we still don't know what the product is for sure, especially since you are now saying that Tom said it was from Norma. To make it clear, Norma and Lapua-VihtaVuori have have never been affiliated.
Regards,
Peter
Regards,
Peter
