Help - My Brain Needs Info

What calibre would you build a sniper/ LR match gun? max 1000m

  • 6.5x51

    Votes: 9 10.6%

  • .308 win

    Votes: 36 42.4%

  • .300 win mag

    Votes: 13 15.3%

  • other

    Votes: 27 31.8%
  • Total voters
    85
aninchlow

aninchlow

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I've been shooting semi's and spending money on them to no end. I've got my projects to shoot very very well. but it isn't enough (is it ever enough).

I have no bolt action tac drivers in my collection and it is time to build one.

Here is what I've got in mind and what I'm thinking about pursuing with a little help from CGN'ers input.

1 surgeon action (here in lies my questions below)
24" stainless helixial bull barrel w/light fluting
A2 McMillan Stock or JAE-700
Mark 4 8.5-25x 30mm
Smith Enterprises 30 mm medium rings
parkerize or some sort of matt black friggen coolio finish

MY QUESTION IS THIS - I want to shoot sniper matches and long range matches. I'm very familiar with .308 (have a supermatch m1a that shoots outstanding) but I'm interested in 6.5 (I don't know enough about it). I hear 6.5x51 (is this the common round) shoots flatter and the bullet bucks wind better then the .308 bullet. The other option is to go into the surgeon XL action that shoots .300 win mag. My concern is that some matches are 66+ rounds and that is a hell of a lot of a pounding from a .300 win mag. My other concern is that most sniper matches I've heard of do not allow muzzel brakes. I know a lot of .338 Lapua guys love their guns but that .338 isn't always allowed on ranges due to it huge reach of 1500m+

Input and info is most appreciated. (especially regarding calibre and my barrel selection) I've never built a tac driver and I don't mind if this takes a while (funds will dictate the length it takes to build this one.) And I'm certainly not looking to buy something off the shelf.

cheers,
 
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Every caliber has it's pro's and cons. Heavy bullets usually means heavier recoil. Many of the Top F Class shooters are shooting 6.5-.284. While it is a great caliber with moderate recoil, barrel life is about 1000 rounds if you want to stay near the top.
I am not sure what a 6.5X51 is? Like a .260 maybe? It seems like the F Class guys have jumped over this round, I think it would work just fine as would the 6.5X55. Barrel life would be 3X what you could except from a 6.5-.284 .300 mags have never seen a great following for long range in F Class, maybe due to the high BC of the 6.5 bullet.

I do not shoot Precision/sniper so I didn't know if you really need a mag fed rifle or if you could get away with a single shot. I also would not limit myself to a 24 in barrel, when you could go with a 30 in.
 
If you want to shoot the BCRA Precision Rifle Tactical match, its police / military calibers only. Out of all you listed about the 308 would be the only one allowed.

My suggestion would be to read DCRA / BCRA rules on the rifle restrictions etc, then decide where your going to go with your build.

Otherwise that looks like a promising build and should prove to be a very nice rifle.
 
Stick with the .308 I am in the process of putting together a project like what you are and all my research so far has convinced me to start with this calibre! my 2cents
Pete.....
 
aninchlow said:
Does the .308 have a good ballistic profile at the 800m+ range when fired through a 30 inch barrel?
Click to expand...

I shoot mine with 155 grain bullets out to 1000 yard or 900m. I know in the UK Match Rifle shooter go back as far as 1200 yards, and some of them use 155 RG ammo at those ranges.
 
Winnie SHORT mag or 6.5 X 284 works very well, I'm using 6mmBR but I give up bullet weight to the 6.5 's

A buddy shoots the Short mag. with great results and less recoil.

M.
 
aninchlow said:
maynard are you using 155 palma moly? or just 155 palma?
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I've used 155 Palma, Nosler, Berger and Lapua bullets. I moly coat them myself. I shot 3 naked bullets today breaking in a new barrel. Maybe 5 more naked bullets tomorrow then staright to Moly after another good cleaning.
After that, no more cleaning until the groups open up.
 
First start with the rules of the matches you want to attend. Likely a service cartridge will be mandated to shoot in the 'reg' class. You may get really lucky and see the 6.5Swede on the list - doubt it.

From the BCRA match, 223 or 308 are you most useable choices. If recoil shy, a fast twist 223 and 80gr Amax will do anything a standard 308 can do out to 1000yds. If shooting score or knocking down plates is part of the task, the 308 wins.

You will need a mag fed rifle and the rifle that BC has built is freaking amazing. Just don't roll in the dirt with it. Hopefully, we can get some feedback on that.

Personally, a Rem/Vbull set up is going to be very hard to beat in this type of task. I much prefer the 'slop' in the Rem that allows it to function if it gets dirty or wet - you shoot rain or shine. There is no shortage of smiths that can build you a 1/3 min rifle, likely 1/4 min.

Pretty sure 1/2min is all the accuracy you could possibly need for these matches.

I sincerely doubt that a BR quality action is going to give you much more given the rest of the platform. And there is potential for not running well in the muck.

Then there is personal thing that will make some custom action shooters skin crawl....these rifles feed TOO smooth. You simply cannot feel any resistance when the rd is chambered. Amazing engineering and finish no doubt but opens the chance of having an empty chamber.

I want to feel that cartridge go into the action. I want to know that the gun will go bang when I pull that trigger. I know I can't count to ten when concentrating on hitting targets.

Why no Savage? Until someone builds 10rd center feed mags for their new action platform, just not going to be competitive. VBull might be solving this issue shortly. Then I would suggest a Savage WAY over a Rem. All the accuracy and function with none of the costs.

I suggest against using a PALMA or 'match' type min spec chamber for your build. For the same reasons as the action, there is absolutely no give in the chamber. So if anything gets in there, you got trouble.

What could possibly get in my rifle.....Think RAIN!!!!

Many smiths will have the Clymer M852 reamer. This is the design that came out of the Vietnam era for ensuring both accuracy and function with their then new 168gr match ammo. Might even still be in use today???

I have had rifles built using this reamer and can say there is zero loss of accuracy potential and there is enough room in the chamber for gunk if need be. Works superbly with 155gr and 175 gr bullets so no lost there.

There are others but this is one that I have personal experience with and can recommend. Plus it is kind of cool to use a historic chamber in a tactical platform. Seems right to me....

As for stocks, try all of them and see what fits you in different positions. Quite surprising what will and will not feel good TO YOU! That's all that matters. Not the jam lable on the side.

The scope you are interested in will do a good job but also consider the Bushnell 4200 tactical. I have used one recently and consider it a best buy for both optics and mechanicals. Might surprise you.

For bases, consider an EGW or Farrel MOA base. Very well built and dirt cheap. Burris rings with inserts will allow you to max the performance of your scope and ensures no tube bending. Hold like glue when properly installed.

Not sure what you mean by helixial barrel? I would go with conventional rifling as I have had polygonal with less then exciting results.

Personally, I would consider a tube no fatter then a #7 and definitely flute it for better balance. A #5 is not too small and would save the cost of fluting. 24" pipe is fine but most rules will allow you to go out to 27". I prefer the shorter pipe.

That covers most of your build.

Now if you want to shoot open, the 243, 260R (6.5X08) or improved versions of either are smoking the matches in the US. The 6.5X47L is also doing well but I perfer more case and less pressure in a working gun. Guns got to run first and foremost.

Ballistically, there is no comparison to the 308. Think Mustang (308) vs Ferrari (243/6.5). Many loads will have up to 1/2 the wind drift of the 308.

But if you want to shoot with the pro's, go 308 or 223 and have lots of fun.

Jerry
 
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mysticplayer said:
You will need a mag fed rifle and the rifle that BC has built is freaking amazing. Just don't roll in the dirt with it. Hopefully, we can get some feedback on that.

Personally, a Rem/Vbull set up is going to be very hard to beat in this type of task. I much prefer the 'slop' in the Rem that allows it to function if it gets dirty or wet - you shoot rain or shine. There is no shortage of smiths that can build you a 1/3 min rifle, likely 1/4 min.

Pretty sure 1/2min is all the accuracy you could possibly need for these matches.


Jerry
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Thus far, no dirt issues. I've gone away from using a "bolt grease" to a high load bearing capable synthetic oil, its slick as goose #### and not sticky. Way better, doesn't pick up junk. I've had it in crap and haven't had problems with the tight action,,,, yet. The action on my rifle is likely tighter than the Surgeon your looking at. You should have no issues with the Surgeon, great action and lots of guys using them with great success.



Lots of good opinions and advice provided in the above pages. Best yet is to decide on what type of matches you plan on shooting. If the Tactical match is your thing, go to one and see what guys are shooting. Perhaps try a few. If its F Class or Palma, same thing.

Showing up at a precision rifle / tactical match with a 30" barrel will kill you. Then again, showing up at an F Class match with a 22" barrel will do the same thing.

Take care and good luck with the build.
 
BC, that is great info to know. Locking up would be no fun or good for relay times.

Here is one I forgot to mention while we were at the shoot.

I found a spray dry lube that I used with excellent success in my M305. Dry surface so zero chance of picking up dirt. Surface felt like silk and super easy to use.

I found this at an industrial supply store. Brand is "Sprayon" S00708. TFE dry lube.

Dupont Krytox dry film with a huge temp working range. So slippery can be used as a release agent for injection molding.

Give it a try. Might be the ticket...

Jerry
 
HEY guys, I spent quite a bit of time researching and listening here and I really apprecaite your help. I think I've made my decision. (ExTRA thanks to mysticplayer and Blackcloud)

I believe I'm going to be going with the surgeon action in .308 as I want to shoot in the tactical matches and I'm a big guy and I shoot .308 a lot already. I like the 6.5 for what it does but I'm able to see that I really have to pick my "game". I see that the .308 doesn't buck the wind quite as well as the 6.5 but shooting in the open class doesn't really interest me and it isn't a tactical match per se. Talking to Ed Begg was fantastic as he used to chum with a guy that was a gunsmithing legend here in revelstoke and he spoke the same language I've heard for quite some time.

My good buddy that has quite a few .25 moa rifles @ 200m & shoots mostly .308 and .338 lapmag and one .300 WM. He is going to be my partner for these shoots and he's quite excited as well. I was able to talk with a few of the guys from BCRA (Mike) and he was helpful as to the rules and what goes on in the different classes. I can see this next year is going to be a time of a lot of shooting.

Some other good news. It looks like the rod and gun club in revelstoke (where I live) is about to change where their range is. Currently it is in revelstoke city limits and the length of the range is about 150m (2 blocks from my house). The city has asked us to move and the land is worth an absolute fortune (3.5 mil or so) and will support and application for us to do so. An application has been made to the crown for some land just outside of the boundaries of revelstoke and it is in the midst of approval. The range design calls for 1000m lanes and propper butts @ 300m! looks like I'm going to have a A+ place 10 minutes from my house to practice. unbelieveable. This could be where some of these events are shot in the future!
 
Couple other thoughts:

If you've got stainless you won't be able to parkerize, but dura/cera/gun coat/kote is good to go.

Definite thumbs up to Ed. I've got one of his rifles and he's in the process of making me up a second. His mag kit sells itself.

Barrel length might be an issue re:eek:verall weight as well. 24-26" should be fine, but once you get it bedded in something like a heavy fill a2 stock along with the base, scope, mag kit bottom metal and rings, the weight is going to be getting up there and the comps have weight limits, 30" might be a bit much.
 
Dumb question, but why doesn't anyone seem to like the 260 in a comp rifle?

It seems to me that it would be easier on barrels than the 6.5/284 yet give up little velocity.
It would run well from a 308 mag box.
Ballisticly it would superior to the 308.
Recoil would be light.

Is the 260 inaccurate at long range or something?

Just wondering?
 
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