Help with load development on Savage Model 12 FCV

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Hey guys. Just starting out trying to learn precision shooting. I bought a Savage model 12 here a month ago or so, so 26" barrel, .223, 1 in 9 twist. I shoot from a bipod, and use no rear bag as of yet.

I have been reloading using Ramshot Tac and Sierra 65gr SBT's. I started off doing a ladder test staring at start load working up to max in .2gr increments, one shot per increment. I had a near perfect vertical string until the sixth shot, then they flew all over horizontally for 4 loads then the last 3 went near perfect vertical string again. Was shooting 250m. Chose the max load and made some up with Ramshot's suggested COAL of 2.210.

Groups about 2" at 100m with that load. No idea how it could be so tight horizontally on the ladder test then instantly open up on a 100m group? So I tried a longer COAL, a reduced load to that 6th load from the ladder test in a 2.210 COAL and a longer one .015 off the lands. No change in groups at all, and was shooting 10 shot groups BTW.

So I decided to load up a bunch at max load and short COAL again. I shot about 70rds of this just to see if I could find any change or any kind of consistancy and nope, all over the place still. Went out to 500m and was shooting at some 1 gallon milk jugs and 500ml pop bottles. Would only score a hit about 1 out of 5 shots. I know its not me because I shoot my Garand about this good with peep sights off my elbows.

I think I want to try a heavier bullet, maybe 75 gr? And definitely some different powder. What do you guys suggest I try? I have a feeling its the powder, and I dont like re inventing the wheel. I posted about Tac in reloading a while ago and only had 2 guys reply that they had tried it but they never said what they were shooting for rifles either. I'm using CCI 400's and Nosler brass as well. RCBS dies and neck sizing only. Cleaning pockets every reload.

What do you guys think?
 
Just a bit of general advice. Try to do load-development with a stable platform. A rear bag and a front rest may make it easier. You can always switch back to whatever config you prefer after you have taken the human element out of the load development stage.
 
Choose the load where vertical switched to horizontal. I've seen some boat tail bullets group poorly at 100 yds and not bad at 200, and real good at 500. Of course the group size is not shrinking but it isn't linear to short-range results either. Try seating bullets all the way into neck. Like Stephen said front rest and rear bag for LD.
 
Just a bit of general advice. Try to do load-development with a stable platform. A rear bag and a front rest may make it easier. You can always switch back to whatever config you prefer after you have taken the human element out of the load development stage.

My advise is load test with the rifle set up like your going to shoot it. If your going to shoot off a bipod, load test off a bipod. I would pick up a solid rear bag and start shooting with that all the time.

How does your rifle shoot with factory loads? How is the barrel cleaning? Lots of copper?
 
I'll have my wife grab me a rear bag today if she has time. I'm pretty steady how I have been shooting, no sway other than heartbeat.

I only shot one box of factory, federal fusion 62gr. Same exact results with it. Maybe it is me?

It cleans out well, usually 1 application of wipe out, maybe 2 if I leave it closer to 100 rounds and seems to have normal amounts of copper and carbon.
 
the thing about load development is, when your groups aren't as small as you think they should be you have to make sure YOU are not the limiting factor, I know iv gone out to the range a couple times and kind of been in a rush or distracted that day and my groups reflected that. So when i get home im thinking i need to tune this load cuz it isn't shooting well. Sometimes its good to just load 20 more the same and try a different day.

it depends what kind of group your looking for too, you have to know what to expect from your gun, the best iv shot with my gun was .795 in at 220 Yards. and the other day i went to the range and shot groups that size at 100 Yards, kind of a disappointing shoot but that doesn't mean i need to change my load. usually if my rifle isnt shooting good its pilot error

im shooting a savage too, 12 f/tr .223, Good Luck
 
I have the same rifle. I've had excellent results with Varget and 69 SMK and 68 BTHP. I've also had good groups - althought not as consistent - with 75 AMAX. Lots of guys shoot tight groups with the Varget/69 SMK combo.

As with the other posters - ruling out human-induced variables will prove helpful to your shooting. For development work I shoot a front bag (Caldwell's I think) and a rear bag - keeps the rifle nice and solid on a bench.
Lap
 
I have a Savage 12 in 9 twist and shoot Hornady 68 gr HPBT and Sierra 69 gr HPBT when I can get them. I use 23.5 gr of H335 with good results, .005 off the lands although farther back gives pretty much same results. Gun also shoots Hornady 52 gr HPBT well with 25 gr of H335. Took a new CZ 527 out couple of days ago with the 52 gr loads for the Savage and shot five 3 shot groups and one 5 shot group. The largest group was .561"(3shot) the smallest was .329"(3shot) and the 5 shot group was .439". Oh, I also did 1 group (3shot) with factory Win white box, 2.141" Crap ammo. Give the H335 a try, Cheers Roscoe
 
Thank you guys a bunch. My wife picked me up a rear bag today so I'll try it here next time out. I have 70rds made up of this load to shoot already so I'll plink it off this next time out with the bag and see how it does. I may try a powder change with the same bullets and then maybe a bullet change, see how things go. I bought this rifle as a learning tool and so far its mission accomplished.
 
I have a model 12 as well, 1-9 twist. The first 150 rounds were factory, and crappy. 2-3" groups. I am not sure if it was the ammo, or the gun, but after those rounds, I epoxy bedded the rifle, and made sure everything was free floating (unless it was actually bedded). At that time I also started the handloads. Immediately the gun was sub-MOA. Now, with 25.5 grs of Varget and a 69 gr Sierra MatchKing, I am averaging 0.35" (5-shots).

Could it have been the crappy ammo? Possibly, the handloads are tailored to the gun. Could it have been the gun? Possibly, I have never seen a gun that shoots worse once properly bedded. Possibly it was also just getting rounds down the pipe and "shooting in" the barrel. All I know, at this point, the handloads are working, and the inletting on the wood stock is far better than it was from the factory.
 
I don't have pictures of my bedding job, but it looks basically the same as every other epoxy bedding job. Google for pictures of epoxy bedding, they all look the same.

The way I did it was...
1. Take action out of stock
2. Identify areas where the action touches the stock.
3. Use tiny chisels, or a light dremel tool, and remove stock material where the action makes contact. Try not to remove much along the top edge of the stock, as you want to maintain a tight stock/metal finish, if only for looks.
4. You don't need to take lots of wood away, anything more than 1/16" of an inch is probably enough.
5. Remember your barrel channel should be entirely free floating as well.
6. Put action back in stock, look for contact.
7. Go back to step one, and repeat, over and over and over, until the only place the stock is touching the action is the bedding pillars (if you have those). Remember to give the recoil lug lots of clearance as well.
8. Once the metal and the stock only touch at the bedding pillars, you are ready to bed the stock.
9. Go get Devcon Steel Putty. Aluminum Putty also works fine. Not the liquid stuff, the putty. It dries rock hard, and is tough as nails. It doesn't shrink, and is immune to pretty much everything. Once mixed, it will have the consistancy of creamy peanut butter, so it won't leak out everywhere. Don't use 5-minute epoxy or 2-hour epoxy or any of that syringe based stuff. It will sort of work, but not well, and is usually too liquidy to work with. Brownells Steel Bed works well as well.
10. Clean all your metal parts with brake cleaner or degreaser.
11. I would remove your trigger group if you can.
12. Put masking tape everywhere on the exterior of the stock and action. Don't be shy, as you don't want even a drop of that expoxy getting somewhere it shouldn't be.
13. Get plastercine/modelling clay and fill in everywhere you don't want the epoxy to flow. Large areas like the mag well or bolt area can be filled with newpaper or styrofoam, and then capped with modelling clay. Small dents like gas ports, screw holes, those notches in the barrel nut, can be filled with clay as well.
14. Anything that can act as a mechanical lock (once the epoxy dries, if it forms a "hook", clawing into a hole or corner of metal, it won't let your action come out of the stock) should be filled with modelling clay as well.
15. I take electrical tape, and make a sharp edged donut around the barrel, about 2" from the action or so, so when the epoxy dries, it has a nice clean edge to it. Wrap the tape so it almost is as wide as the barrel channel. Fill the rest of that gap with a little clay on the stock itself.
15. Use tape, cutting semi-circular notches as need be, and apply take to the barrel side of the recoil lug, sides and bottom. Only the back side (action side) of the lug should be bare. Build up enough tape so there will be a small air gap once the epoxy is set and the tape removed. This gives you some relief so you can get the action in and out of the stock easily.
16. Also use a thin layer of tape over the rear tang. On the savage, only bed as far back as the read action screw. THis will be a difficult area as it is also hollowed out for the tigger group. Build up modelling clay dams in there to keep the epoxy out of the tigger group area.
17. Test fit your action in your stock one last time. there should be no rocking, up and down, or high points, just contact at the two bedding pillars. Everything else should be free and clear from contact. The barrel should be level, and inline with the barrel channel. The action ejection port should be more-or-less true with he ejection port cut in the stock. The rear tang should be free from contact.
18. I use 1/4"-28 bolts from home depot as stand-ins for my action screws. Grind off the bolt heads, and slot them with a hacksaw/dremel. Also, to center the action bolts in the bedding pillars, give them wraps of masking tape so they are snug (not tight). This way once they are in, they will be centered and not pressing against the pillar sides.
19. Once you are confident that no gooey epoxy will run anywhere, use a release agent to coat your action so the epoxy does not stick to it. I use automotive car wax. Some people use shoe polish. Basically you want a whisper thin coat. wipe it on, and wipe most of it off. You should almost not know it is there. THe idea is you want a skin-tight perfect impression of your action metal, so the less wax the better. It will provide a non-stick barrier to the metal that will prevent the epoxy from sticking.
20. At this point your two home-depot action bolts should be in, and should also get a layer of wax. Same for the action screw holes, and the inside of the bedding pillars.
21. Mix up the epoxy. Mix up more than you think you need.
22. I use a butter knife, or chep plastic knives from McDonalds or Wendy's.
23. Put the epoxy into the stock area, whereever you need it.
24. Coat the action with a thin layer of epoxy as well, as this will prevent air bubbles from being (visibly) captured between your bedding and action.
25. Lower the action in slowly, and the headless action bolts should slide into the bedding pillars smootly.
26. Don't press down hard, just carefully seat the action.
27. Secure the action in the stock for 24 hours. Some use latex tubing, and wrap it around the stock/action several times. Some use bungee, or inner-tube rubber. Some use the bolts and run a nut up them and stug the nuts up. So long as it gently yet securly holds the action still, it should be good.
28. Now would be a good time to carefully scoop off some of the epoxy that squished out the sides. Don't touch anything other than the big squishy bits. If you didn't get any squishing out, that is likely a sign you didn't use enough epoxy. You might want to consider pulling it apart and adding more epoxy if this is the case.
29. Don't touch it, don't even look at it. Step away.
30. Come back the next day, and release the action.
31. This next bit is nerve wracking. You might need to gently hammer on your action or barrel to release it from the epoxy. If you did everything right, it should gently snap away from the expoxy, usually by pulling up on the barrel. It might take a little to get it moving, go easy, and slowly increase force.
32. Try and pull the action out as straight as possible, so the recoil lug doesn't break off epoxy.
33. If everything went well, you will have a rock-sold impression of your action permanently attached to the inside of your stock, so perfect you can see machining marks.
34. Pull all that masking tape, modelling clay, wax, off of your action and stock.
35. You will want to clean up the bedding job as well, with a dremel or chisels. Mostly you will be trimming the top of the bedding where the epoxy squished out, and the magwell inlet, and likely around the rear bedding screw where the trigger group is.
36. Reassemble you cleaned up rifle, and check for fucntion. It should have a rock-solid perfect fit in the stock.

THere are plenty of you-tube videos that cover this, it is much easier to see how it is done than read it. Watch a bunch of them, and it will become clear. If you are nervous, practice this process by bedding an old wrench or something onto a 2x4. You will quickly understand the concept of release agents and mechanical locks, without much risk.
 
See my articles on my Website (Tech) for load tuning.

Bed the action/stock.

Shoot from a SOLID rest (bipod is not easy) with front and rear support.

Keep good notes. Use wind flags - there is almost never a calm day.

Once you have found a load that with proper rests, shoot great, THEN you can start to learn how to shoot using various rests and supports.

Just remember that a thou or two at the muzzle equates to an inch at 100yds. Load tune with the most stable and solid set up you can.

Jerry
 
Thanks a bunch Jerry. I'll b sure to read your articles before I move ahead. I'll also be sure to get a good front rest as well and pull the bipod before I try again. I have a rear bag now too. Also thinking about upgrading my powder scale soon.
 
For a front rest, a pile of sandbags works just fine. Just put a channel so that your stock is cradled and can't move laterally.

When load tuning, use anything that will remove shooter error. The goal is find the best set up for the rifle.

THEN you can figure out how to shoot it from any position you desire.

Jerry
 
Should the action make contact with the aluminum at the rear action screw? If I remove aluminum there what keeps the action from settling in the rear? It doesn't contact at the front screw just the recoil lug but it makes hard contact at the lear action screw.
 
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See previous post. BED that rifle correctly.

If you have to ask a question on how an action sits in a stock, you got big problems. See my videos on bedding in my dealer forum.

Then test on your own action. The need is pretty darn obvious....

Until proper bedding is done, you really are wasting ammo load tuning cause the results can vary as the action shifts in the stock.

Like trying to run a marathon in shoes 3 sizes too big.... What's the point?

Jerry
 
See previous post. BED that rifle correctly.

If you have to ask a question on how an action sits in a stock, you got big problems. See my videos on bedding in my dealer forum.

Then test on your own action. The need is pretty darn obvious....

Until proper bedding is done, you really are wasting ammo load tuning cause the results can vary as the action shifts in the stock.

Like trying to run a marathon in shoes 3 sizes too big.... What's the point?

Jerry

Ok I will go look at them. The videos I watched on you tube and the instructions above said to remove 1/16th of an inch of aluminum at the contact points. I think doing this at the rear action screw will be a mistake as it will make the way the action sits in the stock change and the barrel will move up and it will just squeeze the epoxy out. Unless I am missing something I guess I just answered my own question. Lol.
 
Try Varget and 69gr SMK's in that 1:9 twist. 23-26grs with the bullets seated .015-.020 off the lands.

Ramshot has not been known for extreme accuracy, not saying it can't work......but if it did work.....more people would be using it.
 
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