Heretical cost question

@Moose308,

I realize that is true for a lot of people. But my situation is a bit different. I enjoy my job, and I have a certain amount of flexibility with the number of hours I work. If I work more, I get paid more.

From all accounts, reloading can be a fairly time-consuming hobby. If I start reloading, I'm pretty sure I'll be working less in order to find time for it. That's a real cost for me.

I've read tons of forum posts by reloaders. I almost never read about someone who does it purely to save money. Most people seem to want the extra accuracy or simply enjoy it.

I'll probably start reloading for one of those two reasons eventually, but I don't think I can yet. For now, I think I need to be able to convince myself on economics alone. Researching the costs of equipment and materials isn't too hard. But finding out how much time is involved is a lot harder.

That's why I asked.
 
dave37 said:
Hi, I will qualify this with, I am not reloading, but thinking about it. Cost of equipment aside, with new brass at roughly $20 per 100, bullets at roughly the same, powder and primers I'm looking at $50 per 100. I can get Remington or Winchester value packs in 9mm at $60/250, which is considerably less.
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um... well i know i save more by reloading 45 then you do on 9mm... but maybe you have a high priced source, i only pay about 14c a bullet, cases would be 7-12c IF i bought them (i dont), then powder+primer is about 4cents a round.

cheapest brass cased .45 i can buy is 33 cent a shot, and its not the best, but the reloads are top notch and only cost me 18 c a shot

for my .223 its even better, normally absolute cheapest i can buy is 37c a round norinco,

i can make it for 12c bullet + 7cent case, again IF i bought cases, and 6cfor powder+primer, so cost for me is 18 cents a shot... now factor in that when I up to 62 grain bullets, retail is about 50cents a shot, but I can reload for 20 cent a shot, its a good deal, more consistent ammo, and you can tailor the charge.

check out budget shooter supply above, best prices I have found great service too
 
people always ask that "what's your time worth" question.

It's my HOBBY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you ask " what's your time worth" when you go hunting? Fishing? Golfing?

It's a HOBBY FFS! I like doing it.
 
dontshow said:
Do any of you guys factor in your time into your cost calculations? It is clear to see that if you only compare components, reloading is way cheaper for all but the most popular handgun rounds. But how much time does it take you to load 1000 rounds, for example? I'm thinking of getting into reloading, but it has been hard for me to find answers to this question.
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With a clean press (lee pro1000) full powder Hopper, and bucket of shells I was able to do 475x 9mm in 1 hour.

dontshow said:
I'm not afraid to buy expensive equipment if that means reloading takes less time. I fully expect to shoot enough to pay off the equipment.

What do you guys suggest?
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Most presses etc retain their value a good amount. Say 60% at leat. So to me it makes no sense to facter that cost.
 
You should be able to find bulk 9mm bullets for a lot less than $20/100. Jo-Brook Firearms, Custom Reloading Services, and Marstar all carry Berry's plated bullets for much less than that.

My costs per 1000 based on recent component purchases are as follows:
Berry's 124 grain plated bullet: $86
S&B Primers: $32
Universal Clays powder (4.2 grains): $16
Total: $134 plus GST

I have assumed no brass cost: long case life combined with being able to more than make up any losses through range pick-ups.

Compare this with factory ammo. You probably won't find anything much better than $275-$300/1000 plus GST nowadays. At the lower figure, the cost saving is $141/1000. Assuming a net output of around 400/rounds/hour on a Dillon 550 or similar progressive press, the cost savings work out to $56/hour, which I think is not too shabby for something I do in my spare time. Reloading is not excessively time-consuming if you have an appropriate setup for your volume needs.
 
I don't reload any pistol ammunition, however I do reload for rifle. If I only shot as much as I used to, I'd save a considerable amount of money. However, having the equipment now, and enjoying the reloading process, I easily shoot much more now than I used to, ultimately spending more than before. However, I now get to shoot 3x as much with far superior ammo, spending approximately the same or slightly more as I did before.

The quality of ammunition produced is much better than factory. For example, the ammo I load is only comparable to factory Federal Gold Metal Match (using the same components). The cost to load this ammo is 20% of buying the FGMM off the shelf. Its a no-brainer for me.

Comparing the price of the reloading equipment to the amount saved on nearly-comparable (with favor going to my reloads) ammo, I will have paid off my equipment in 600 rounds in my .223. For me it pays for itself quite quickly.

If anyone is interested I have created a spreadsheet that directly calculates the cost of ammo. Its just a matter of plugging in some numbers. PM me and I can help you out.
 
+1 To what Spawn-Inc wrote.

For 9mm using Frontier/AIM projectiles my cost is around 0.120 per shot, going up to a hair under 0.140 if I use Montana Gold (At my skill level I cannot justify the cost any more... just didn't see the difference in my scores). $7.00/50 rounds is easily achievable.

For 9mm or 0.40 you'll never have to purchase brass shooting IPSC or any other action pistol sport; typically there are enough guys around that don't collect brass that after five or six matches you'll have enough pieces to get going... say 1-2k pieces depending on the number of shooters in your club and not being greedy. By collecting all your brass before you start reloading like I did you'll be ahead of the game: When I first started shooting I collected every piece of brass I shot... started reloading with 7k+ 9mm!

For .45 ACP I reload at around 0.228 per round giving about $11.40/50 rounds.
I base my costs assuming an average 90% brass recovery rate... indoors it's closer to 98-100% while outdoors it's closer to 70-80% giving about 90% on average. With 9mm its not so critical to collect the brass but with the hard-to-get calibers like .45 and .38 super your hands are going to get dirty!


dontshow raises a good point: what about the time investment?

On my Dillon 650, just standing in front of the press pulling the handle (including refilling the brass hopper, the primer tubes by hand, and refilling the powder cylinder) I pump out about 600 rounds per hour. If you include brass handling time (tumbling and sorting) and quality control (I case gauge every round) and packing into boxes my overall through put is about 150 rounds per hour. So for a simple practice session I invest about an hour, and for a match two.

To mitigate the setup-and tear down times (remove/replace press dust cover, empty/fill/refill the powder cylinder, un/lock primers and powder, re-certify powder measure and seating depth) I try to manufacture ammunition in 800 to 1000 round batches once a month or so representing about three hours of effort: setup, re-certify, press, tear down, inspect and pack. Brass handling activities, tumble and sort, are performed on a separate occasion (just to break-up the effort so it doesn't become a chore) again once a month and preferably timed to occur on a rainy weekend. That takes me again about three hours but I sort all my brass by mfg to give more consistent overall cartridge lengths... you can omit this step and reduce this time to less than thirty minutes of brass handling time.

Overall, reloaded ammunition is superior to factory if you're willing to pay about an hour per 150 rounds or so (significantly less if you skimp on the brass sorting-by-mfg step). You have the advantage of tuning your load to your gun for optimal accuracy and recoil management. Further reduction in time investment can be made with additional monetary investment: with a Dillon 650 or 1050 you can build or purchase an automatic bullet "dropper" to replace the powder check stage. A fellow IPSC shooter has an electric motor controlled by a foot switch than drives his 1050... push foot switch and only stop when something beeps! More primers, more powder, brass is empty, etc. I'm happy at my rate of production but then again I only shoot about 10k rounds per year; he shoots 3x that easily.

If you're shooting volume is high get into reloading. Your gun will like it and so will you. If you have the budget automate the press as much as possible... if you're really rich don't even collect brass... purchase fired 9mm brass and use it once (you'll still save money compared to factory) and remove all but the tumbling step if the time cost is too high. Just get the idea of saving money out of your head - YOU WILL NOT SAVE MONEY reloading... you'll just end up shooting more!
 
I will concede that for milsurp and low grade factory rounds (available only in a few calibers) there is no point if the goal is to save money. Also match grade ammo from the factory is very good, and I punched some cloverleafs with federal match, but again this is only available in few calibers and is close to 40.00 a box.(308win)

44mag for example, factory round is about 1.00, whether it is a hollowpoint defense load or hunting flat point. I can reload the same round to more exacting and consistent charges (should my handgun skills improve to take advantage of this) for at least 50% less. 45acp savings are close to the same. The most I paid for a reloading tool is my RCBS chargemaster, as this eliminates the slow steps of hand measuring, weighing on balance and trickling powder. Most other tools I have been able to obtain through shows, or people I know who no longer use them and this has reduced the trading of money assets into tools, which are tangible assets, unlikely to depreciate beyond whatever I'd save from their use.

I reload for most calibers I have, especially rifle for consistency and because I have not taken to the popular rounds. It is a productive thing to do as opposed to sitting in front of the "censored to sway public opinion tube".

When you reload your first round, there is a certain satisfaction, so staring at that round, and the many brethren standing beside it is a rewarding experience.
 
Nice math Dave! :D

I'll sell you all I have at those prices, and laugh all the way to the bank!

Oh yeah. Why is it that every (EVERY) time this comes up, the assumption is that the brass is gonna cost retail , and never get used again?
Figure at between 4 and a dozen or more uses, IF you end up buying new brass.
Hotter you load, the lower the lifespan of brass, usually.

So factor roughly ten percent of the cost of new brass, maybe twenty, if you really want to push the power levels.

Cheers
Trev
 
dontshow said:
Do any of you guys factor in your time into your cost calculations? It is clear to see that if you only compare components, reloading is way cheaper for all but the most popular handgun rounds. But how much time does it take you to load 1000 rounds, for example? I'm thinking of getting into reloading, but it has been hard for me to find answers to this question.

For now, I don't care about accuracy because I'm a really bad shot. Even cheap factory ammo is a lot more accurate than I am. (I do hope to change that eventually.) But I would like to save money (or shoot more for the same money).

But I'm also in a position where I can work more hours at my job to earn more money. If I can buy a box for $30 or load a box for $10 plus 3 hours of time spent reloading, well I'm better off buying the commercial ammo and working the extra 3 hours.

I'm not afraid to buy expensive equipment if that means reloading takes less time. I fully expect to shoot enough to pay off the equipment.

What do you guys suggest?
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To me, reloading is part of the shooting hobby, so my time does not come into play.
 
Moose308 said:
Everyone always asks "what is your time worth?"

Answer, nothing.

Sure, they will come back and say they can make $40/hr or something. However, they don't. You aren't reloading while you are working. You are reloading while you are not working. It's called time-off. At night. So really, you time is a sacrifice between reloading, or sitting around watching TV, or helping the wife with her To-Do list. Either way, you ain't getting paid.

At best you have about 80 years on this planet, then you are dead. You have to spend about 1/3 of that time sleeping. And another 1/3 of that time as a slave to the man. The final 1/3 is your time. If you want to spend it watching Golden Girls reruns, have at it. I'll do something more important thank you.
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:agree: Nicely put. And unless you are buying your ammo at the range you have to factor in the time & money it costs to drive to the store to buy commercial ammo. For me there is little more satisfying than shooting a good target with ammo I crafted from the ground up.
 
dave37 said:
Hi, I will qualify this with, I am not reloading, but thinking about it. Cost of equipment aside, with new brass at roughly $20 per 100, bullets at roughly the same, powder and primers I'm looking at $50 per 100. I can get Remington or Winchester value packs in 9mm at $60/250, which is considerably less.

Even with once fired brass of my own, I still can't beat the price of commercial ammo. How the heck do you guys do it? Is there a price advance to hand loading or is it just a quality choice?

Add the cost of equipment and it is even less economical. I would much appreciate input on this, thanks very much!
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I cast a Lee 125 gr. round nose bullet for shooting 9mm and tumble lube it.
http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/bullet-molds/9mm-luger-38-super-auto-380-auto/lee-dc-mold-356-125-2r-

Bullets are cast using straight wheelweights which I can usually get for free from local garages. I have never had a leading problem using Lee tumble lube (even on non-tumble lube design bullets). Dragon Bullet Lube (site sponsor) sells the equivalent to the Lee stuff very reasonably.

I use a Lee 6 cavity mold to speed up production.

Primers - Winchester small pistol primers - $35/1000
Powder - Alliant Promo - you use this weight for weight the same as Alliant Red Dot. It duplicates Red Dot performance for less money. I am fortunate that I have a dealer locally (John Emmett) who sells it ridiculously cheap ($90/8 pounds). It's a flake powder so it doesn't meter quite as well as Bullseye or 231 but I have had no real problems with that.

I use 3.5 grains of Promo and have no problems with consistent ejection from any of my 9mms (Kimber 1911, Glock 17, S&W M&P).

So my cost is:

bullets - free
brass - definitely averages under 1 cent each over the life of the case which people have pointed out is quite long. Most ranges have 9mm all over the place free for the picking
primer - 3.5 cents per round
powder - 56000 grains (8 pounds) divided by 3.5 = 16000 rounds for $103 (tax in) = .6 cents per round

So... 1 cent + 3.5 cents + .6 cents = 5.1 cents per round X 50 rounds = $2.55 per box of 50 (gee, even I didn't realize it was that cheap ).

Of course you have to buy the casting equipment for the bullets but that is a declining cost as the more bullets you cast the lower the price per bullet is. I would guess that after you have cast 2000-3000 bullets you have easily paid for your casting equipment and if you maintain it well you can use it for years. Same goes for reloading gear. I'm still using the same Rockchucker press, powder measure and scale that I bought when I started about 30 years ago although I have upgraded to a Lee Loadmaster for handgun ammo because I shoot a lot of it and there's a big time saving with a progressive press.

If you can get cheap or free casting metal it really drops the price. Even cheap commercially cast bullets at 6 cents each adds $3.00 per box of ammo. That's a lot cheaper than commercial ammo but still way more than casting your own.

The bottom line is if you are going to shoot a fair bit then there are real savings to be realized by reloading plus you can tailor your loads to what you want, not what the factory makes available. If you're going to shoot one box of ammo a year for hunting then reloading makes no sense.
 
dontshow said:
Do any of you guys factor in your time into your cost calculations? It is clear to see that if you only compare components, reloading is way cheaper for all but the most popular handgun rounds. But how much time does it take you to load 1000 rounds, for example? I'm thinking of getting into reloading, but it has been hard for me to find answers to this question.

For now, I don't care about accuracy because I'm a really bad shot. Even cheap factory ammo is a lot more accurate than I am. (I do hope to change that eventually.) But I would like to save money (or shoot more for the same money).

But I'm also in a position where I can work more hours at my job to earn more money. If I can buy a box for $30 or load a box for $10 plus 3 hours of time spent reloading, well I'm better off buying the commercial ammo and working the extra 3 hours.

I'm not afraid to buy expensive equipment if that means reloading takes less time. I fully expect to shoot enough to pay off the equipment.

What do you guys suggest?
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If you can work and make good money then invest it in a good progressive rig and a good single stage.

You will probably spend $2,000 on a Dillon 650 with a case feeder and a bullet feeder and a good single stage such as an RCBS Rockchucker.

If you ever get tired of the hobby you can still recoup atleast 80% of your investment on the Dillon.

During the fall and winter I reload all my pistol ammo.
I produce between 600-900 rounds per hour when everything is going smoothly.
I produce in the neighbourhood of 5000 rounds of 9mm at a time which usually lasts me 6 months.

I then switch to .45 ACP and produce 4000 rounds which lasts me the whole year.

Next comes .223 which I use for the AR.

I reload for precision rifle all year long but that's a different pleasure.
 
I don't shoot handgun a great deal, althugh that will be changing next summer.

For the past 46 years I have shot mainly rifles. By now, I am reloading for something like 25 different calibres of rifles, mostly military. Working very slowly, I can turn out about 2 20-round boxes per hour. That is 40 rounds for something such as a .303, but my ammo will turn in half-inch groups if you can hold the rifle. Factory ammo generally shoots groups 4 times this size.

Ammunition for my .50-70USG is about $5 a shot and it's 75 years old. Kropatschek ammo was last made in 1926, Lebel ammo in 1950, .40-82 in 1935, Beaumont-Vitali ammo has NEVER been made in North America, and these all cost a small fortune. Even relatively modern cartridges such as 6.5 Carcano (of which I use a lot) is nearly impossible to source and utterly impossible if you want good ammo.

My Snider ammo is worth, retail, $8 a shot IF you can find any (it was last made in 1966). It COSTS 20 cents a pop to reload. Casting my own slugs takes time, yes, but I do a couple of hundred at a session and usually do several types in an evening.

But if I reload 3 boxes of .577 Snider in an hour, I am saving $468 in cash money and I'm shooting FRESH ammunition.

My time is certainly worth $468 an hour.

And it's FUN to do!
.
.
 
nntw said:
Spawn-Inc said:
indeed, i will pass on that wooden bullets don't seem to work very well...
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forget zombies- that's vampire-specific ammo....
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Actually, this gives me a (potentially) cool idea. Does anyone have a nice mini-lathe, kind of like the ones for making exotic wood pens? It might be interesting to get someone to make up some exotic wood bullets, all polished up and glossy. Then make dummy-rounds by loading those into Nickel plated cases. They would be a great addition to a zombie-ammo display on the gun-room wall.

You could have a "In Case Of Emergency - Break Glass" case with zomie ammo, as well as wooden bullet vampire ammo. Geeky, I know, but a conversation piece.
 
I reload 9mm.

I don't really consider brass as its own "expense". Reason is that I just bought and shot commercial ammo until I had a good supply of once-fired brass. I would not bother buying 9mm brass on its own unless I started shooting 9mm super (which would require another gun lol).

With the brass already in hand, my cost to reload 50 rounds is around seven dollars all in. Buying ammo commercially, one would be very lucky to find half decent ammo at 12.00/50, plus taxes. So, I save upwards of four dollars per every 50 reloads I shoot. Usually when I am at the range I will shoot at least a couple hundred rounds, which means I am saving at least 16 dollars every time I shoot. Over the course of a year that adds up to enough to buy a range membership and my CSSA insurance and maybe some extra. All while shooting better ammo.

Plus I enjoy the hobby.

It's win-win for me.
 
Thanks everyone who replied to my post. Im thinking of getting a rock chucker single stage kit first, then move to something like a Dillon progressive. Would purchasing a single stage kit only to buy a progressive later be a waste of money or
a good idea?
 
Single Stage will certainly educate you on what reloading is all about. Making the jump right into progressive can be a daunting task, since not only do you need to learn all the little steps of reloading, but you also have to monitor all those stations simultaneously. At least with single stage there is only ever one thing happening at a time, so it is far easier to monitor what is going on.

Will it be a waste of money? Hard to say. If you are dead-set on getting a progressive later, then perhaps. If you are confident you can resell your single stage at a decent price, then you shouldn't be out much money at all. If you are planning to reload rifle rounds, you would probably want to hold onto the single stage anyhow, since that is the press to use for precision work.
 
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