HK 416 on Future Weapons 22:00

[peckerwood]

KevB...what is your opinion on the Magpul Masada in relation to the G36, HK416 and M4?

I am curious...

 

[KevinB]

Well knowing Rich he would not let it out the door unless its perfect.
There has been quite a discussion on Lightfighter et al about piston systems.
I dont think the G36 is really in the equation - as its suffered so many setbacks in usage -- the Germans bought it as a cheap alternative for unification.

My opinion that in order to transition to a new (non M16FOW) small arms system it will take a revolutionary change in small arms developement.
If one accepts (and not necessarily say I do) that the Hk416 is an evolutionary change.

The Hk416 is still handycapped in OAL due to the fact its a drop in system for the M4 -- and that is what AWG/CAG/DevGrp wanted.
Larry Vickers and Gordo came from that community and purposely sepc'd that.
In a unit that can shoot 5k rounds a week the fact that your doing a bolt a week in a DI gun - (given a 14.5 suppressed or 10.5 upper your playing with fire if you dont swap it then)
Most conventional units wont see that round count in a year (some in their career).

The convetional army wears guns out more by cleaning or bashing them off things (or having someones vehicle drive over it) - a piston system is not really going to do them a lot of good (and with the 3 ball bearing rule - it may actually caise more problems -- I remember as a young dumb private I got a chunk of 4x2 stuck in my C1A1's gas tube and the weapon tech ended up cutting the tube and replacing it)

AND even if one wants pistons for everyone if one is going to be replacing the entire small arms fleet - it may be time to address the "short falls" of the lenght issue on the M16FOW -- due away with the necessity for a buffer tube. This will provide a much shorter system for storage (highy valued for some trades) or concealment (highly valued for some others)
(I can walk around with a Sig552 under my fleece and not look too obtrusive - NOTE to RCMP- this is done in Iraq - I dont own a Sig552/CQB in Canada)

Unfortunately for Magpul - FN has the jump on them with the SCAR series - and lot of rounds downrange and feedback from US SOF usersgroups.



Myself - as I've been crowing about before I think the Diemaco/Colt Canada C8SFW (in a midlength medium contour barrel - rails space and weight - if you dont buy the midlength other advantages ) is hard to beat - and if certain trades think its too big -- the C8CQB (which would be cool in a 12.5" midlength )

 

[Scarecrow]

There is obviously something not all that great about DI if nobody is using it for weapons that are required for high volume fire, such as GPMG's and the like. And while piston designs are widely dispersed to many weapon systems, DI can't seem to get itself outside the AR line-up.

 

[KevinB]

The funniest story to come out of USSOC was the weapon testing prior to SPR-V.

11 weapons where tested with IIRC 5 of each -- the idea was too see what on the market was better than the Colt.
Final results had two DI guns finishing.
#2 was the Colt M4A1
#1 was the Carbon15 (shocker eh?) -- just the upper on Colt lowers

at that point some people went off to design the Hk416...

 

[capp325]

Capp325 -- you CANNOT say AR's and 416's that is apples to oranges - If you say Colt/Diemaco weapon and Hk416 - then its apples to apples -- and Colt/Diemaco parts are inspected and rigorously QC'd.
A Military/Gov't weapon is not some hacks homebuilt frankengun.

I must admit that I’m not all that familiar with the quality inspection procedures conducted by the U.S. military, but if they are really all that rigorous, how does one explain the Checkmate Industries' Beretta magazine fiasco?

 

[KevinB]

Will you accept "A Military/Gov't Gun [except for the Beretta M9 which is an unmitigated POS] is not some hacks..." ?

 

[Armament]

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=426431

Love them or hate them they're worth their weight in gold on the civi market.

 

[Gunslinger]

Love them or hate them they're worth their weight in gold on the civi market.

Until we see a Norinco copy

 

[Reaper]

While the DI sytems is novel and works for the most part it certainly isn't the best solution. I can't see any advantage in venting propellant fowling and heat into the bolt and cycling area of a firearm designed for combat, that's just bad design. An adjustable piston is far more dependable.

Proof? The DI system has been used sucessfully in combat for decades, so far the only data on any improvement making the switch in designs is being provided by the manufacturers themselves.

 

[cybershooters]

Based on what evidence?

The Canadian C8 (basically and M4) proved to be more relaible than the G36 in the UK SF trials (plus three others). I don't know of any other supervised military trial.

Maybe a new G36 would be more relaible than an old beat up M4, but compare apples to apples and the G36 does no better. And the M4 doesn't break in half when you jump out of airplanes.

Plastic is for handguards.

Have you got the results of those trials? I've been trying for awhile and they're classified (in fact I even know one of the suppliers who was involved, and even he doesn't doesn't have a copy of the official report). I don't think we can draw conclusions, because we don't know exactly why the G36 failed against the Diemaco. I could for example point out that the Spanish bought the G36 in quantity instead of the M16A2, so it proves nothing really.

The bolt design on the G36 is better than on the AR-15, and the piston design keeps the carbon out of the receiver, so in theory at least it should be more reliable. After all, H&K spent a lot of money designing it expressly to be better than the AR-15, because they knew that was their main competitor.

But what happens when you drag them through mud, etc. Like I say, the fact that you can sit them on a range next to each other and the XM8 or whatever will shoot tens of thousands of rounds and the AR-15 will only shoot thousands of rounds without jamming makes basically nil difference in the real world. Certainly not enough difference to spend billions on replacing one with the other.

At the end of the day they both shoot the same ammunition and it has the same effect on the enemy, so it's a hard sell, and that's why I knew the XM8 would amount to nothing. Plus AFAIK H&K never got the barrel problems sorted out.

 

[cybershooters]

One thing that makes HK a superior firearm has nothing to do with the gun's design and everything to do with quality control. As far as I know, every part of the 416 is manufactured in Obendorf, by well-paid, skilled employees, and subjected to HK's rigorous quality control tests. American-made ARs, on the other hand, outsource manufacturing to a million different outside suppliers and have no direct control over parts quality.

But the reality is that wouldn't have happened if they got a large US military contract, because they have to be made in the US. That's why Beretta had to build up their factory in Accokeek. And it's why H&K built a plant in Georgia. And that's another reason why the XM8 was a big load of hot air. And so is the 416.

 

[cybershooters]

Does anyone here think that an issue Colt Defense M4 is better than a HK416 ? It seems that there are alot of people defending the M4. We all know the M4 is a great weapon. Maybe the HK416 is not enough of an improvement to spend millions on replacing the Colt Defense M4 but does anyone realy think the M4 is better?

I'll take the HK416. It may not be that much better and there are pros and cons to both weapons but you will have a hard time convincing me the M4 is superior.

Rich

I think a new H&K 416 maybe better than an off-the-rack M4. But would it be better once it was being made in large quantities at the lowest possible price? If it was, then only marginally, if at all.

 

[tekriter MK 1]

we don't know exactly why the G36 failed against the Diemaco.

Reliability, Availability, Maintainability and Accuracy.

I could for example point out that the Spanish bought the G36 in quantity instead of the M16A2, so it proves nothing really.

The M16 worked better, the HK built a factory in Spain. Figure it out.

the fact that you can sit them on a range next to each other and the XM8 or whatever will shoot tens of thousands of rounds and the AR-15 will only shoot thousands of rounds without jamming

Sounds more like an opinion than a fact.

 

[Scarecrow]

tekriter you talk as though you are saying facts but you have as much proof as cybershooter so I dont get the whole high and mighty post you're making. Plus arent you a person who works with Diemaco or the government making you slightly bias?

As much as I like the AR series if you take a look at small arms developments in all the major countries you start to notice that nobody wants to design a new firearm based on the AR gas system. They might want the feel, the layout of the features, or even a chance to use the same basic parts, but nobody wants to use the direct gas system, which speaks volume. And if you look at the guns that are designed for large ammounts of sustained fire you will see DI gas systems fall off the planet.

If I could I would even prefer delayed blowback AR vs Normal DI AR.

 

[koldt]

Reliability, Availability, Maintainability and Accuracy.

That's all... Now you're getting picky.

Minor details, minor.

I read the latest, guns for cool swat guys magazine and it says the Hk is a better system. End of argument.

 

[Scarecrow]

On the other hand, those who shoot a lot of people are still packing M16.

And those who have choices go with the DI system - British, Danes, Dutch, Greek, some French, Italian, polish, Australian.......

For poeple that are trained, it seems that the DI systmem does not bother them a bit.

Number of countries with piston guns far outweights those with DI! They are also the countries where the most people are doing the most killing and have a long history of killing.

 

[koldt]

The HK facility has been in Turkey for awhile, I think since the late '70s. I've seen a little of the stuff out of there, and it wasn't bad. I found it better than the Pakistani HK licensed guns.

Absolutely, politics plays an immense role in any firearm saga.

I personally find the piston system an answer in search of a question. Appears to me, someone needed something new to market. And that was it.

 

[Gunslinger]

Hell, wonder why swiss arms lost the Norwegian rifle trial already while C8 is still kicking?

I think you answered your own question.

It is about politics - lots of times it is not about the weapon itself, it is about technology transfer and making jobs in the local economy.

Proof? The DI system has been used sucessfully in combat for decades, so far the only data on any improvement making the switch in designs is being provided by the manufacturers themselves.

The whole effort by SOF for a new rifle and the adoption of the HK416 and SCAR.

 

[Rich LPS]

If we were to predate this argument 30yrs there would be alot of similarities. Once upon a time the M16 rifle came along to replace the M14 rifle. The Hue and Cry was incredible. For the next couple of decades or so the M14 was held up as the Holy Grail of combat weapons. The M16 was a POS and anyone who said anything different was attacked and discredited.

I haven't seen anyone here say that the AR/DI weapon is a POS so why are we defending it to such extremes. I for one firmly believe that some piston driven systems are an improvement over the DI system. How much...I'm not sure. Worth spending millions to re-equip an Army...I don't know. Better with several advantages and maybe a few small disadvantages yes.

There are very few people on this board who carry a weapon for a living and fewer yet who take one into combat either in Police Tactical or Military Combat situations. It seems that many board members go off of what they are told, read or what they dream to be doing with their weapons but are not paid to do. This is not meant as a slight but just that your prespective on weapons tends to change when the potential is there for someone trying to kill you.

If the AR/DI system is so good then why would US Special Operations Forces be pursuing a different system (read improved system with more capabilities and maybe the odd short fall that is made up for by the advantages).

I would like to have more information on the Tavor. What limited information I do have is that Israeli forces claim the (piston driven) system is an improvement over the M4. I have faith that they have done a "bit" of testing on the weapon as well as have a "little" experience with "combat" and "killing the ememy".

I just hope no-one comes on and states that the Galil is an overweight POS.

Rich

 

[Scarecrow]

Hell, wonder why swiss arms lost the Norwegian rifle trial already while C8 is still kicking?

Lowest bidder who meets the requirements. It not just for vehicles and clothing in the militaries of the world.

I wonder if there are people on the AK and FAL forums looking for DI conversions for there rifles?