Hk 416

KevinB said:
Now what a shock every BullPup army uses M4/M16FOW system for its SOF?
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Always thought the same thing. The Brits use C8's if I'm not mistaken, and the Australian and NZ SAS use M4's. Hell, even some Eastern European armies are going with AR-15 variants. Is this because it's a better rifle? Well, they seem to think so.


That said, bullpups are cool and when C-19 passes a Tavor is on my to buy list.
 
I don't see the M16 family of weapons going away anywhere soon, really from all the rifles out there I prefer the AR variants over every thing else out there, the rifle has molded into the future with all it's upgrades in parts and rising quality standards over the decades. Can't see it leaving till we are using laser guns and even still many of it's characteristic's will be used on that system for sure.

Ergonomically it is superior overall in all it's forms, it's slick and compact, the controls are now truly ambidextrous and the newer versions are keeping up with all the changes and new systems that are coming out.

The AR evolution just isn't stopping. The HK416 project has help breath the new life into the AR/M4 industry that got the ball moving forward with all it competitors. The one thing that makes me chuckle is when people say "its just another AR" well to all the new rifles like the SCAR and ACR, well "there just another Assault Rifle". The AR line is made for a gun fight, and that is what I want in a rifle.

HK made a rifle that could compete with the G36 in performance, like 20000 no cleaning tests etc and brought over the greatness of Stoner brilliance, is Piston system going to win out in the end over DI, we will see, perhaps there is room for both.

The only thing that needs to be done on the HK416 in my book, is adding the features on KAC lower there and sending it out with a better flash hider/compensator. Also a lighter rail for the bigger versions like 14.5 to 20 configs and a better charging handle.
 
What Kevin posted stands, you can not use the Tavor left handed if it is comfigured for right handed use, and shooting right handed around the left side of cover exposes too much of the user. Same goes for the SA80 (which can't be converted at all) and others. The FS2000 (I won't even consider the P90, it is a PDW) can be used, but as was already stated, it has other issues.

The latest US carbine competition, which will probably take about ten years to be implemented, will not be won by a bullpup, and that weapon system will take the US to at least the middle of this century, if not longer. Many other countries will piggyback onto this, as it will result in cost savings all round.

Most of the countries you quoted are not exactly regarded as being "up there" if you know what I mean. Added to this, very few of the gunfighters who do this for a living are "gun guys". They use what they are given, and don't think for a second, that the people responsible for telling them what to use have gone out and procured the "best" weapons either.

With regard to the HKs and their "wundermags", there are reports coming back that are not all favourable, either about the mags, which Kevin already mentioned, or the rifles. Why do you think the UK MOD has recently purchased 1 250 000 Emags, when they already had plenty of the HK mags?

As for the Tavor "pretty much replacing the AK and in some cases the M4/M16", let me know when they have built 175 million of them.

I think it's nice that you love your gun so much, but you are delusional if you think that every military will be running around with bullpups in 10 years.

Regards.

Mark
 
If you follow the links below, you will see a couple of things relevant to what I posted:

1. Leaning out from behind cover further than necessary on a two way range (we are talking about actual military use here) blows even more. This goes for clearing buildings (where not crowding cover may not be an option), as well as outdoors.

2. The current US Army Individual Carbine Competition does not include any bullpups as serious contenders AFAIK.

3. It does not look like the US Marines will be getting any bullpups either.

4. Given that the Competition has been going on for over a year already, and is only at its current stage, as well as the fact that the Congress report does not (optomistically) expect a selection to occur before 2013, and fielding to occur between 2016 to 2017, without factoring in delays due to the current and future economic outlook, ten years may be about right for fully fielding the weapon.

5. People who are in positions to select weapon systems do not necessarily do so based on anything more than shiny advertising and special offers/package deals. Why do you think there are PDs in the US running around with firearms that quite franky neither of us would buy. Not saying that it happens all the time, just that it happens.

6. Countries that use bullpups generally, mostly tend to have SF who don't. I believe police call this a clue. Countries who used to use bullpups have also changed back, eg: Malaysia. I would also predict that the next UK weapon will not be a bullpup.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...35c74731a827d42c51859&tab=core&tabmode=list&=

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/09/army-competitors-tested-in-carbine-competition-092510w/

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/08/army-seeks-better-carbine-082810w/

http://www.military.com/news/articl...ys-lead-on-new-carbine.html?col=1186032325324

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...3b752d24feb88544c686bcfe6ff&tab=core&_cview=0

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22888.pdf

Regards.

Mark
 
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Epoxy7 said:
FS2000 as you mentioned, FN P90, Kel-Tec RFB although yes not a military rifle.

Lights and lasers. bullpups seem to be variable in terms of space/rails. The FS2000 for example with the optional front rail. The RFB with multiple rail system. Even the Tavor front panel looks as if it could be changed at a later date with a rail system.



Special forces: India, Azerbaijani Army, Colombian Army, Georgian Army, Philippine Marines, Ukraine. Every year the list seems to keep growing.

Seems some armies are using the bullpup for special forces even when it's not their primary rifle.

A number of countries seem to be replacing their M4/M16 service rifles with the Tavor. Also a number seem to be replacing their Kalashnikov based rifles with the Tavor. Note some of the countries. In a number of these cases we are talking about places always in conflict. Even though there were political reasons as well for Israel to develop the Tavor it's still a place in the world where the firearm has to be good. Chances are it will be tested in combat.

The Tavor is pretty much replacing the AK and in some cases the M4/M16. Give it time and the bullpup will be the primary design for centerfire firearms. It's weaknesses are being addressed and the benefits are great.

The HK416, SCAR, ACR etc are stop gap rifles. As more and more of the bullpup weaknesses disappear and as the old guard is replaced the acceptance of the bullpup will gain in popularity. The writing is clearly on the wall. The M4/M16 will hold out for a while longer, especially since the US is pretty much in a depression. Look back on this in 10 years when the recession/depression is over and the US haven't been in armed conflict for an extended period of time. When they rearm it will only be with something that truly offers a lot more than the M4/M16. The bullpup is really the only way to achieve another jump up while remaining with current powder based projectiles, anything else is just an incremental upgrade.

one more observation. What I'm seeing with the Tavor reminds me of when the Canadian military went from the FN FAL to the C7. Many of the guys I know from the military didn't want to change and still consider the FN a better firearm. The younger generation would think they were nuts. 5-10 years we will be in for the same thing. I'm betting it will be a bullpup.

I would still love to see a reliability test. ;)
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There is nothing special about those "so called special forces"

I only know 6 countrys with true SF units "USA, UK, Canada, Australia, Isreal and Poland"
 
Seems to be a lot more if wikipedia is to be taken serious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_forces_units (and what designates "true" special forces?). Not trying to be a douche...my take is SF has more training and some better equipment than the regular military persons.
 
There is a difference between clearing a building during a firefight, and clearing it during a warrent search. You have experience in one, some have experience in the other (I would insert the winking smilie here, but I'm not a smilie kind of guy).

The current carbine competition will go ahead, it may take a few years, but it will never be a bullpup. I would bet on that.

Regards.

Mark
 
Brordo said:
Seems to be a lot more if wikipedia is to be taken serious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_forces_units (and what designates "true" special forces?)
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SF units are like experts "anyone can call them selves one"

Ask the guys from the RCR what they thought of the Portuguese SF overseas ;)

The ones that USA SOCOM trust to work with, are true "quality SF units" IMO

Quality meaning as good as SAS or any of the US units. In training, kit, combat experience, skill and maturity
 
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I have never seen any of the Magpul videos, and searching a building during a school shooting (done a lot of those have you?) is NOT the same as clearing a building during an active firefight where there are rounds coming back at you.

We are talking about a weapon for military use here, not LE.

Remember, this is the internet, you have no idea who I am, what I have done, or where I have done it, so lets just cut out the chest thumping and #### measuring, and discuss stuff that we can provide actual proof of.

Did you actually read any of the documents I linked to?

Regards.

Mark
 
Epoxy7: Seriously dude, go back a read the amount of #### you've spewed, so many people with experience have commented and obviously disagree with you. I happen to agree with them as well bull-pups are not going anywhere. That being said I respect your opinion, and listened to it the first time, but we have all heard it like 15 times in this thread, and now your just arguing with people, it's time to give it a rest!
 
Leibermuster said:
A lot of rumors seem to come from Colt Canada I hear...
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The best part about attending international shooting competitions is the number of friends I now have currently serving in other nations armies.

They tend to notice things like orders to return every rifle to HK ASAP,
and that they may not fire M855A1.........ever.
 
KevinB said:
snip Blah Blah
Uhm really -- worst mag ever...
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Great... I take a few days off and miss all the HK fun... I don't think it's any more of a stretch to say that HK makes the best piston AR than Knight makes one of (if not the) the best DI ARs out there.

Respectfully, I would have to take issue with the "worst mag ever" assessment, though (I think that particular honour goes to the LAR-15). The HK steel AR magazines are some of the nicest and easiest-loading USGI magazines I've ever used. Heaver, thicker (marine coating) and longer, most definitely; and I cannot attest to the reliability or durability in the field, so maybe that's what you're basing your opinion on.
 
Gunnerlove said:
The best part about attending international shooting competitions is the number of friends I now have currently serving in other nations armies.

They tend to notice things like orders to return every rifle to HK ASAP,
and that they may not fire M855A1.........ever.
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If you can be more specific, everyone I know that has used them has no problems shooting all sorts of 556 including M855A1.. Are you talking about Norway specifically because I have a few contacts over there too and have not herd of any problems persisting since a few rifles on the inception that was mostly due to operator error. I have spoken to anyone since there for over a year now though.
 
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