Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
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Hk 416
- Thread starter Rich LPS
- Start date
I'm with Epoxy on this one. Bullpups provide a serious package in a smaller package. With practice, mag changes are just about as fast as with a conventional style rifle.
The Tavor CAN be easily shot lefty by canting the rifle. I do this regularly (cross eye dominance and just plain practice) and never eat brass. Again, it's just a matter of training.
The only complaint regarding bullpups is the triggers. They are getting better, and while I wish the Tavor's trigger wasn't so crappy (compared to a match AR trigger), I have never had issues with long, fast, accurate shots. Again, practice is key.
Can you see a trend developing. Training!!! People born and bred on the AR platform cannot just pick up a bullpup and run it as effectively as an AR. However, with some trigger time and rounds down range, it can be better. Bullpups have a much better balance. I mounted my 6x ACOG (which a bit of a beast) and she felt "light" due to the balance.
The Tavor CAN be easily shot lefty by canting the rifle. I do this regularly (cross eye dominance and just plain practice) and never eat brass. Again, it's just a matter of training.
The only complaint regarding bullpups is the triggers. They are getting better, and while I wish the Tavor's trigger wasn't so crappy (compared to a match AR trigger), I have never had issues with long, fast, accurate shots. Again, practice is key.
Can you see a trend developing. Training!!! People born and bred on the AR platform cannot just pick up a bullpup and run it as effectively as an AR. However, with some trigger time and rounds down range, it can be better. Bullpups have a much better balance. I mounted my 6x ACOG (which a bit of a beast) and she felt "light" due to the balance.
Their are 6 accepted Tier1 SOF units
CAG
DEVGRU
JTF-2
22SAS
SASR (which is turning over some of the Domestic CT duties to the Commando Regt)
KSK
Other CJTF accepted SOF entities seem to be GROM (the Poles who run Hk416's).
Now you can do the math but 4 of the 6 Tier1 units run Hk416's, or at least 416 uppers on a Colt lower in the case of the Aussies (just selected last year).
CAG
DEVGRU
JTF-2
22SAS
SASR (which is turning over some of the Domestic CT duties to the Commando Regt)
KSK
Other CJTF accepted SOF entities seem to be GROM (the Poles who run Hk416's).
Now you can do the math but 4 of the 6 Tier1 units run Hk416's, or at least 416 uppers on a Colt lower in the case of the Aussies (just selected last year).
I had two early OTB 416's - a 14.5 and a 10.4 - those guns where sewing machines -- they ran and ran and ran.
I have heard and seen some issues with the newer ones, but by and large I think the Hk416 is the best piston M16FOW on the market. I personally am not the biggest piston fan, as I feel that the majority of the piston advantages can be overcome by a DI gun with modernization to a few areas, without the cons of a piston. However I don't think anyone is poorly armed with any version of the Hk416 (except maybe the Norwegian version).
As far as KAC's point of view, if the end user community wanted a bullpup, we would make one. So far we have not been asked to, and in most cases discouraged from doing so by those groups.
As far as I know not one BullPup has past any sort of endurance test done by one of the units I noted above, and I know at least some have looked at them.
Keep in mind many of those units noted above will fire 40,000-80,000 rounds a year thru their carbines, so what may be fine for a hobby gun or a general infantry weapons that may fire 1,000rds a year will not be good for them.
I will be at SHOT -- We are running a Mil/LE range the day prior at Desert Sportsman with Larue / ATACTV. Email me from a work email and I will get you the registration info if you want to come.
The HK mag -- springs often wore out VERY early -- BigRed can attest we could get free Hk mags, and stopped using them due to failures. The Hk416 users down here had Magpul make the EMag after talks with Hk failed to bring about a M16 Magwell (I can see Hk's reluctance as they wanted to keeo the SA80 magwell - as it worked with their blank mag etc). The Uk MoD award Magpul a contract for about 2 Million EMAG's to replace their Hk mags in the SA80A2.
I have heard and seen some issues with the newer ones, but by and large I think the Hk416 is the best piston M16FOW on the market. I personally am not the biggest piston fan, as I feel that the majority of the piston advantages can be overcome by a DI gun with modernization to a few areas, without the cons of a piston. However I don't think anyone is poorly armed with any version of the Hk416 (except maybe the Norwegian version).
As far as KAC's point of view, if the end user community wanted a bullpup, we would make one. So far we have not been asked to, and in most cases discouraged from doing so by those groups.
As far as I know not one BullPup has past any sort of endurance test done by one of the units I noted above, and I know at least some have looked at them.
Keep in mind many of those units noted above will fire 40,000-80,000 rounds a year thru their carbines, so what may be fine for a hobby gun or a general infantry weapons that may fire 1,000rds a year will not be good for them.
I will be at SHOT -- We are running a Mil/LE range the day prior at Desert Sportsman with Larue / ATACTV. Email me from a work email and I will get you the registration info if you want to come.
The HK mag -- springs often wore out VERY early -- BigRed can attest we could get free Hk mags, and stopped using them due to failures. The Hk416 users down here had Magpul make the EMag after talks with Hk failed to bring about a M16 Magwell (I can see Hk's reluctance as they wanted to keeo the SA80 magwell - as it worked with their blank mag etc). The Uk MoD award Magpul a contract for about 2 Million EMAG's to replace their Hk mags in the SA80A2.
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm with Epoxy on this one. Bullpups provide a serious package in a smaller package... I mounted my 6x ACOG (which a bit of a beast) and she felt "light" due to the balance.
I think if you took the best features from the FS2000 (forward ejection, trigger), Tavor (ergonomics) and PS90 (compact) you'd have a winning design. Possibly something like a hybrid-X95 with an adjustable LOP. Oh, and you couldn't find anything bigger?
I just run mine with a POF lower (solves the magazine compatibility issue).
Regarding the FS2000, I have heard about some issues (from users) having problems with the forward ejection, specifically with damaged cases (from OOBs) becoming lodged in the tube.
I believe it also lacks a BHO, which may not matter to some, but is not exactly a point in it's favour.
Regards.
Mark
I believe it also lacks a BHO, which may not matter to some, but is not exactly a point in it's favour.
Regards.
Mark
The bolt locks back with the charging handle and notch in the charge guide slot. It does not lock back automatically on an empty mag though.
Bull pups are worthy design philosophies that deserve more attention from the industry. It would be interesting to see what a quality manufacturer could accomplish with a bull pup if they engaged and actually accepted and implemented design changes from a user group that used them for their intended purpose.
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
I've owned a lot of bullpups, (and I currently own an L98A1), don't think anyone else on here has owned an FA MAS for example and I've owned lots of AUGs. Haven't used a Tavor, haven't owned an F2000 but I've used one (on full-auto).
They've all got problems imx. The SA80 is accurate but all the weight is to the rear, people whinge on about this or that bit falling off of it and how much better the A2 version is, doesn't alter the fact it has a crappy trigger pull and doesn't balance well, plus the mag release is awful, they overcompensated for the original mag release and trigger that I personally never had a problem with (because I keep my rifles clean and I just never had the mag release problem, the original RG mags though were crap).
The AUG is too tall and the trigger pull is also pretty bad, ditto for the F2000, the F2000 is also just way too bulky.
The original FA MAS F1 was the best one imo, the mag release on the G2 version is way too stiff (to avoid the SA80 problem) and it is a real challenge to change mags let alone do it quickly and the aluminum mags don't last long fighting against that steel mag release. Lightweight and accurate though, but typical French engineering, reminds me of a Citroen, separate levers for the safety and the fire control mechanism. But the trigger pull is okay, unlike other bullpups. I wouldn't say good, but for a military rifle it's usable.
There's also the teeth removal problem that they all have except the F2000.
Maybe the Tavor is fantastically better but I doubt it.
They've all got problems imx. The SA80 is accurate but all the weight is to the rear, people whinge on about this or that bit falling off of it and how much better the A2 version is, doesn't alter the fact it has a crappy trigger pull and doesn't balance well, plus the mag release is awful, they overcompensated for the original mag release and trigger that I personally never had a problem with (because I keep my rifles clean and I just never had the mag release problem, the original RG mags though were crap).
The AUG is too tall and the trigger pull is also pretty bad, ditto for the F2000, the F2000 is also just way too bulky.
The original FA MAS F1 was the best one imo, the mag release on the G2 version is way too stiff (to avoid the SA80 problem) and it is a real challenge to change mags let alone do it quickly and the aluminum mags don't last long fighting against that steel mag release. Lightweight and accurate though, but typical French engineering, reminds me of a Citroen, separate levers for the safety and the fire control mechanism. But the trigger pull is okay, unlike other bullpups. I wouldn't say good, but for a military rifle it's usable.
There's also the teeth removal problem that they all have except the F2000.
Maybe the Tavor is fantastically better but I doubt it.
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
All the Bullpups you mention are best run on reduced power ammo according to the user armies.
I am pretty sure it is less being Bullpup and more being a piston driven rifle using a Stoner bolt but what do I know.
Famas is really kind of neat for 5 minutes, after that you realize it is an evolutionary dead end. Unless you like your optic mounted 6 inches over your bore.
I am pretty sure it is less being Bullpup and more being a piston driven rifle using a Stoner bolt but what do I know.
Famas is really kind of neat for 5 minutes, after that you realize it is an evolutionary dead end. Unless you like your optic mounted 6 inches over your bore.
It is the operating system - not the bullpup design itself. M16 familiy seems to like to run on higher port pressure, probably because the gas needs to travel 7 inches and the amount of energy required to move the system is different.
Most Europeans rifles were optimized for the requirements ( like SG55X)for that period. When the silly army or the "committee" want an ambidixious charging handle, there are only so many ways of accomplishing it. When the silly army and "committee" wants to shoot 300m bullseye, they optimize the rifle to shoot bullseye with iron sight.
Personally I won't mind a bullpup. They have a place in a big army and they tend to provide better balance with grenade launcher attached. If you think about it, most of the army work is about getting from point A to point B. If you cannot get there, you cannot use your weapons. It is definitely easier to rappel, climb walls, jump off helicopter/plane and ride in vehicles with a bullpup. And really, most of the conventioanl army does not even have enough time to be super proficient with shooting, so left/right shoulder switch and the X second gain in mag change/IA can be left to some more high speed specialists.
For a regular joe humping the rifles (or sportsmen that range shoots or hunts), I will say the benefit of a bullpup outweights the disadvantage. Unless you are a very proficient "gun guy" or your trade involves shooting stuff against the timer, then bullpup is too much a generalist for your application.
The problem with all the current bullpups is that they were designed and pushed out in the 70's and 80's. And in case you have not figured out most of these products were NOT designed to compete in an open market, but rather around the doctrine of a specific military at "that time". They were certainly way ahead of their time back in the 70's and 80's(so were Ramones and Rancid I guess...). Even for the TAVOR(and G36), it is designed such that IWI and its affiliated israeis companies will own the accessories sale, and hence all the proprietry mounting points on the TAVOR. It was super awesome on paper to integrate all these gadgets in one package (and lock you into buying their accessories) back in the 90's. However, it also limits yourself to the innovation elsewhere. Of course, if you do not have your own budget to buy stuff, it does not mean much and you do it with whatever you have. IF you do have a budget that you can control, you probably will just go buy M4s because you don't have to ask the central planning committee before you buy the add-on gadgets. For 99% of the population and many of the budget minded militaries, giving everyone an IR laser(well, they need to issue NVG to everyone first right?), mini range finder or super duper flashlight is not happening soon - so many could be happily served by whatever proprietary system and keep driving on for quite a while.
On the other hand, the AR15/M16 is born and has evolved in the biggest free competitve firearms market. Also,the US government does not just hand the firearm contract to one local company as if a private company is the state arsenal ( like HK to Germany, FN to Belgium, Diemaco to Canada or Berretta to Italy)
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Best post so far goes too greentips in this thread.
Very true, a lot of the advanced shooting skills learned in the last few years or at least made more public don't make a huge difference in the big picture for large armies, and it is difficult to afford all the training for the average soldier to be trained on many of these standards, something many civi shooters that have the money or time to do, just don't get!
Very true, a lot of the advanced shooting skills learned in the last few years or at least made more public don't make a huge difference in the big picture for large armies, and it is difficult to afford all the training for the average soldier to be trained on many of these standards, something many civi shooters that have the money or time to do, just don't get!
One thing to note here is that body armor greatly influence the way bullpup are run.
If you know anything about body armor with hard plates, you will know shorter stocks are favored. I doubt everyone here is 6+, if you wear modern army's body armor you will know the plate makes shouldering rifling a lot more difficult. Using a long stock (ie fixed AR stock) is basically making you use rifle with outstretch arms. Typically bullpups does not offer retractable buttstock yet it's a relative long LOP.
If you guys don't know what I'm talking about look up US soldier shooting with OTV & IOTV (name of the body armor) you will see they're either using the shortest positon on the stock or they're not shouldering correctly.
If you know anything about body armor with hard plates, you will know shorter stocks are favored. I doubt everyone here is 6+, if you wear modern army's body armor you will know the plate makes shouldering rifling a lot more difficult. Using a long stock (ie fixed AR stock) is basically making you use rifle with outstretch arms. Typically bullpups does not offer retractable buttstock yet it's a relative long LOP.
If you guys don't know what I'm talking about look up US soldier shooting with OTV & IOTV (name of the body armor) you will see they're either using the shortest positon on the stock or they're not shouldering correctly.
I'm 6'1", and I'm a one click out guy, at least in the body armor we use now. The collapsible stock on the A2's is an improvement. Having also used the a1 stock with an FPV, that sucked, there was nothing comfortable about it.
I've fired an SA80, and aug's a few times, ran a few ranges with them too. I didn't like the balance, and couldn't quite find a comfort zone with them. The Sa80 had a flahlight and IR on it, and still just felt rear heavy. To each their own I guess, but as far as portability and agility goes, I don't think there would be much to gain with a bull pup over a 16" AR platform. I'd rather see a 14-16" AR issued to all troops, and get a bunch of 20" for the light Infantry.
I've fired an SA80, and aug's a few times, ran a few ranges with them too. I didn't like the balance, and couldn't quite find a comfort zone with them. The Sa80 had a flahlight and IR on it, and still just felt rear heavy. To each their own I guess, but as far as portability and agility goes, I don't think there would be much to gain with a bull pup over a 16" AR platform. I'd rather see a 14-16" AR issued to all troops, and get a bunch of 20" for the light Infantry.
I've only handled the Tavor with soft body armor on and the LOP on the Tavor didn't seem as critical as a fixed A2 on an AR rifle. I'm sure shorter would be better for hard body armor. Do the IDF not also use hard plate armor?
As for the trigger. The one on my Tavor is heavy but it's still crisp. Fairly decent for a combat rifle trigger actually. Mine might be an exception though. I've kept both springs on since I don't like the lighter but spongy feel with the one spring off.
I also wonder if electronic triggers will one day be the norm. If so this would eliminate the disadvantage of trigger linkages with bullpups.
As for the trigger. The one on my Tavor is heavy but it's still crisp. Fairly decent for a combat rifle trigger actually. Mine might be an exception though. I've kept both springs on since I don't like the lighter but spongy feel with the one spring off.
I also wonder if electronic triggers will one day be the norm. If so this would eliminate the disadvantage of trigger linkages with bullpups.
