Holster Certification

beltfed said:
I too shoot both IDPA and IPSC (amongst others) and I think taking a BB would be good for shooters looking to enter into IDPA.
If it gives you a year in IPSC, try it out for a few matches - you may like it, and you may find that shooting both sports 'spices it up a bit'.

It is definately beneficial if someone is to have a good grasp of fundemental pistol shooting skills, and a good working knowledge of their pistol prior to taking the BB. Be confident without being cocky and soak in as much as you can. They will definately be better shooters at the end, and when compared with other instruction, it is a bargain.
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Well said.
 
I think you guys are forgetting the premise of this thread.

"Holster Certification"

the purpose of holster certification is to enable a participant to draw andfire as well as reholster his gun in a safe manner that will no cause undue stress to the safety officer or RO.

what the participant does with the gun when it is out of the holster is his or her own buisness.... with the exception of course when the participant goes to reholster said firearm.

so out of the 20 hours of blackbadge instruction, 4 hours being classroom, how much time is actually spent on the dynamics of holster presentation, unload and show clear and reholster ? ...... maybe an hour or two at the most ? with reenforcement of the unload and show clear throughout the course ??

I think what needs to happen is that a 2-3 hour course needs to be developed to be sport generic and just concentrate on the holster....

Sure I love the IDPA and IPSC ideas but each is sport specific and most of the time is spent reviewing rules and how to shoot that sport, very little is spent on the actual mechanics of removing and replacing a gun from its recepticle.
 
I know that in the CDP training laid out for our club, the instructors look for members with at least several months of actual center fire handgun shooting experience (just like Storm said. Accuracy does count for something). Of the 12+ hours of the course, at least 3 is pure holster work. Classroom instruction, individual critiques in the class room, then dry fire on range, finally 150 rounds or so of live fire with drawing from holster and re-holstering almost every shot (works up to double taps). That was just to enforce the holster safety aspect. After that you are taught the basic techniques of the discipline and it is stressed that they are basic techniques and that coming out on practice nights is a great way of learning more advanced tecniques and increase skill and knowledge of the basic techniques/scoring/etc... On top of that coming out to the practice nights allows a newer shooter to become more familiar, and comfortable with the other shooters.

Of course that is just at my club and other clubs/discipline/instructors may do it differently.
 
Back during the C-17 maelstrom, I was the club IPSC director at Trillium Sport (later USSR/Grange, etc)

We had a huge number of people interested in the BB, because there was a possible exemption for normal capacity mags.

With only one weekend a month available at most, and a maximum of 9 shooters per course, we quickly wound up with a 80-90 member backlog. For months, the courses went well because people not equiped or ready for the course bowed out making room for those who were ready.

After a number of months, we hit the bottom of the talent barrel. After one particularly frustrating course where 3 students lacked the basic skills to finish, I called a halt to the practice of just signing up. Before you got on a course, you had to meet me at the club and demonstrate that you could hit a 12 inch target at 25 yards in single and double action (if applicable). If you could get 80% or better hits, I'd give you a spot. If you couldn't, you waited until you could.

I was told recently that IPSC Ontario has taken a dim view of any pre-screening of students. If it's true, while I can understand not wanting to needlessly exclude interested people, it doesn't sound like a horrible idea to make sure they can hit the paper before putting them under the stress of the course.
 
stormbringer said:
Well the IPSC Black Badge course is a minimum of 4 hours of class time over the length of the course and 16 hours of actual range time.

QUOTE]

Note that is the IPSC Ontario BB course. here in Alberta you usually do two days, with with class room, shooting and mini match. about the only thing i do different is that i give my students the open book exam ahead of time so that they can have it done for the course rather then spend half of Saturday night trying to do it when they are dragging ass.
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i am on the other end of the debate of what skills a new shooter should have take a Black Badge course. All i ask is that they know how their firearm operates and are comfortable around a firearm. i think it take sway more to break bad habits (like a homey grip) then to teach someone correctly right off the bat. Personally i don't find that it slows down the course because in most cases the uninformed person does what you tell them to do while the so called experience pistol shooter does not and you have to stand behind them with a 2 x 4 to break them of their bad habits.
 
there is no requirement that i know of for 4 hours of class room time only. as far as i know we have a book, a set of exercises that have to be completed and an exam.
 
good attitude walter, how else can we bring new shooters into the fold unless we give them the chance to participate in training and get "holster" qualified.....

speed and accuracy they can work on by themselves.... by only allowing "certain" people into the course your disallowing the people we need.

a little background, I am a first aid instructor, been teaching off and on for 10 years i na part time basis for st john ambulance and emp canada.....

a student can come in my class and the rule of thumb is to teach to the lowest denominator, make sure they understand and the rest of the class will follow.... for the most part this works very well.... as stated sometimes I have to pull a student aside after class and have a talk tothem to know they understand.

why should shooting be any different ??.... if you cannot teach the course to a green newbie in the 2 days alloted then I hate to say that the course has a bad lesson plan.... every lesson plan has to be made with the lowest denominator in mind.... that way the instructor can tailor the course to a faster pace if there is all experienced students.

to say that someone will slow the class down, is not the persons fault... but the instructors.
 
Westicle said:
I think you guys are forgetting the premise of this thread.

"Holster Certification"

the purpose of holster certification is to enable a participant to draw andfire as well as reholster his gun in a safe manner that will no cause undue stress to the safety officer or RO.
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I think it goes beyond just doing it in a safe manner, to doing a proper draw stroke, in and out of the holster, as well as proper pistol craft in general.

I don't want to be near shooters that are just safe, I want them to be both safe and confident in what they are doing.

IDPA and IPSC are not all that unfamilar with each other.
 
I have read all of your threads and this is what i think should be a the guild lines for MYSELF And only me. I have only just recently taken on this new hobby. In fact i just got my first ATT and my probation is done at my club as of tomorrow. So at this point i feel it would not be a good idea to do the BB course. However half of you are saying its OK for newbies to do it.

I can hit a target at 25 yards with my ruger p90 8/10 times. I can do it with a 22 rifle at least 8/10 times. So technically speaking i should be at least meeting the minimal standard correct?

I would rather do one course than do 2 or 3 different ones as i progress in this sport. I love to sit at the range and hit those targets( my friend takes me at least once a week ;) ) however i know i will love to learn more and get better at shooting.

SO, is it a bad idea for me to take this one? from your opinions?

Cheers
Douglas
 
camero boy...

take the course, with the caution that you are goign to be the lowest denominator... maybe. if you walk in realizing what your shortfalls are you can spend extra time working on it at night and such.
 
I took by black badge having only ever fired a gun 3 times before, and my FAC (yes, I'm that old) was still in process.

I was taught to be safe and had good habits instilled in me before I could put even 4 out of 5 rounds on a target at 10 yards.

As far as I'm concerned, accuracy is secondary. I don't think being able to hit a target consistently at 25 yards is a requirement to learn the safety. As long as the rounds are not missing by 10-15 yards ( or striking the ground horribly short due to flinch / jerking the trigger ) then I would not prohibit a bad shooter from taking the black badge course and learning safety first.
 
hungrybeagle said:
I took by black badge having only ever fired a gun 3 times before, and my FAC (yes, I'm that old) was still in process.

I was taught to be safe and had good habits instilled in me before I could put even 4 out of 5 rounds on a target at 10 yards.

As far as I'm concerned, accuracy is secondary. I don't think being able to hit a target consistently at 25 yards is a requirement to learn the safety. As long as the rounds are not missing by 10-15 yards ( or striking the ground horribly short due to flinch / jerking the trigger ) then I would not prohibit a bad shooter from taking the black badge course and learning safety first.
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I completely agree. You can always learn how to be accurate AFTER you learn how to be safe. Take the course, have fun and be safe.

And by the way; you're not that old. Why, when I was your age, I was much older than you...
 
hungrybeagle said:
As far as I'm concerned, accuracy is secondary. I don't think being able to hit a target consistently at 25 yards is a requirement to learn the safety. As long as the rounds are not missing by 10-15 yards ( or striking the ground horribly short due to flinch / jerking the trigger ) then I would not prohibit a bad shooter from taking the black badge course and learning safety first.
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Aim Projectiles said:
I completely agree. You can always learn how to be accurate AFTER you learn how to be safe. Take the course, have fun and be safe.

And by the way; you're not that old. Why, when I was your age, I was much older than you...
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Accuracy is never our concern. Actual manipulation & control of the handgun is. They could be the most accurate shooter alive, but if they consistently sweep with a loaded/uncleared handgun, I'm not happy.

All I want them to be able to do is the following.
Be able to get EVERY round downrange and not into the walls, roof, or floor (or appropriate outdoor versions).
Be able to load/unload the firearm, and operate the mag/cylinder release and slide stop.
Be able to understand and follow instructions. (If I say keep it pointed downrange, then keep it pointed downrange damnit...)

Nerves, jitters, etc... will be overcome with practice and familiarization.
 
i spoke to my range officer at colby today. hes black whatever certified.

He told me that has no doubt that ill not only pass it but do very well judging by my probation shooting.

So that solves that. ill giver a try. cheers for the replies guys
 
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