Roly Miles. Canadian PPC shooter. Accurate ? Sure.
With PPC loads. Tremendous power. Horrendous recoil. Optical speed. You can SEE the bullets flying.
Would he be as accurate with full .357 Magnum revolver loads (158/1200) ? All of it double action, of course. Stock revolver with 2½" barrel. As accurate ? Really ?
Look up Roly Miles. Canadian PPC shooter. I believe he is currently ranked # one in the world. All in the 10 ring, mostly x's. At 50 yards. No sandbags. Prone, sitting and left and right handed around a barricade.
In my opinion, both these quotes are accurate and correct. In the Mexican Clubs, we shoot a version of the PPC that is updated and allows us to run multiple shooters through on each string and yet stresses the realities of the current civilian situation in Mexico. If you are in a fight, your only advantage will be that your opponents do not expect you to be armed. At the same time, your opponents will be much better armed than you are. Our courses tend to stress finding adequate cover (cover that would stop or deflect an AK-47 round) while at the same time allowing you to return fire with head-shot accuracy. We use a version of the NRA B-18 target that we print off ourselves in the thousands and the individual packs of fullsize targets and the two sizes of repair-centers and the optional orange sticky center-patches are quite inexpensive. This allows the shooters to practice without any real strain on the budget. Our target is marked as the B-18/F with the "F" denoting Fermin Almaguer who runs the print shop that makes the entire package for us. This target is ubiquitous in Central Mexico, and our goal when testing handguns is that we get "X-ring accuracy" from the bench at 25 yards and "9-ring accuracy" from the bench at 50 yards. Most S&W or Colt revolvers with 4-inch barrels or better will give you that. Auto pistols vary greatly.
The original Mexican PPC cut out the 50 yard left-side barricade position, as well as the sitting position and replaced those with 6 shots free-standing at 50 and 6 shots over a barrel or short wall. The 50 yard is being changed again, cutting the number of shots down to 18 which will be just the right-side barricade position, the over-the-barrel position and the prone. The 25 yard is 6 shots left-barricade, 6 shots right-barricade, 6 shots over-the-barrel and another 6 shots in 10 seconds free-standing. It may be that one is caught in the open, so the ability to hit well at medium range should be tested although some people who cannot hit the ocean from a rowboat and may not like it much. The new rewrite will include more 7 and 10 yard shooting, with strings taken pretty much directly from the NRA Los Alamitos course with the right-hand only string and the left-hand only string included and will end up being around a 72 shot course. We'll see how it works for us. Also, PPC's are often shot with the time-limits cut to only 2/3 of the original time, or even 1/2 occasionally "just for yucks".
Mexican courses don't allow "special PPC" guns, the holster standards are pretty simple: can you walk through the local shopping mall with it and nobody will notice? We have several Mexican Rural cops in the group, all armed with the 4-inch Python they esteem so much, who can and will judge anyone too out-of-the-closet in the holster gear if it comes down to it. We also throw in the odd "Big Boy PPC" which requires a power-factor of 180 to enter -- entirely eliminating any of the auto-pistols we are allowed to have in Mexico except for the few Coonans that are remarked and registered as .38 Special automatics.
Glocks (generally Glock 25 .380's either in stock form or upgrated to .380 Cal power which duplicates 9mm to 9mm +P performance) are common and often seen in longslide Glock 34 configuration with the compact frame. Browning Hi-Powers are common as well. Neither the Glocks nor the Hi-Powers ever seem to come up to snuff on the "X-ring accuracy at 25 yards from the bench" although they are close. You can work on a Glock -- especially the trigger -- to the point that it can pass the accuracy test but it pretty much loses it's appeal as a daily carry pistol. The last thing you want is the damned thing going off when it wasn't supposed to but you were covering people that were obviously armed but as yet unidentifed and you were nervous and now, dammit, everyone is drawing on you. And one-handed, at any distance, the Glock was always unkind to me although I carried my own whenever things were hairy in my immediate work-area (kidnappings, extorsions, etc.) because it had lots of shots.
Glocks are common and popular although their accuracy farther out left me somewhat sour. This longslide Glock 19/25 in .380 Cal, with the slide properly remarked and etched as a SEDENA Glock 25 is outfitted with what the owner describes as a "Chinese fuel-filter adaption" and works amazingly well. I should note here that suppressors are not illegal in Mexico and are sold openly. Also, there are no magazine restrictions as to shot-content. There are caliber restrictions. So it's not a perfect world.
We could get the 1911's up to snuff with some serious work and investment. Clark/Para ramped barrels that fully-support the .380 ACP case allowed us to load that sucker up to .38 Super specs. A 142 grain LSWC at 1,140 to 1,150 from 5 inches and right around 1,200 fps from 6 inches was impressive performance. Using all the tricks of fitted links, barrel back-feet planting firmly and Briley Bushings tightly fit we could match the K-38's at 25 yards. I would say that at 50 yards, competing against one of the 6-inch 1911's with your revolver was an even-Steven affair. However: you won't be entering the "Big Boy PPC" with a 1911 in .380 Cal as long as the minimum Power Factor to enter is 180, and even if we drop it to 170 only the 6 inchers would make it under the wire. Barely.
The girls team had a variety of guns. Of the three pictured here, the S&W 3904 in my wife's hand and the Glock 19/25 cannot match the 25 yard accuracy of the S&W Heavy Barrel Model-14 .38 Special.
The 6-inch 1911 longslides provide amazing accuracy out to 50 yards with the 142 grain Saeco SWC bullet. Our club secretary's 1911 was our "experimental model" we used from the get-go as she had trouble with revolvers and wanted an automatic that could "do it all". Now, there are quite a few of them around and although they require a bit of ingenuity to conceal, a good friend of mine uses one as his daily carry. So I guess that ends that argument. Working day-to-day running an Ice Cream Store, I wanted something smaller and easier to hide but he wasn't and isn't under the glass as much as I was. Vero's holster obviously breaks our "practical holster" rules but for quite a while practical holsters for 6-inch 1911's simply didn't exist so we had to make them. This Safariland Competition holster was what she had and we gladly let her run with it. As probably anywhere, there is a double-standard accepted for the women. Our Clubs like to have a women's team and we'll happily make an exception for a Sharpshooter Class female shooter who could never win overall that we'd probably not make for an Expert or Master Class male shooter who just might.
Just lately, here in Canada, I got myself a Beretta 92fs. Some of the guys in the Queretero Club have them and have shot into Expert or even low Master Class with them. The gunsmiths at the Custom Shop rave about them, and have been doing so for a few years now. I remember the owner of the Custom Shop telling me one day as we walked across the parking lot of the local Military Base to a meeting with the local Army Commander that "you need to take a look at the Beretta 92. We've been having great success working on those." But I ignored him, to my detriment. We were heavily involved in getting the 1911's up to our accuracy standard and so I shrugged his comments off. My bad.
I got out to shoot it exactly once, as I only just got it. The one nice day we had that I was off -- about 2 weeks ago -- got up to around 10 degrees Celsius outside. This is freezing for me. In 26 years of living in Mexico, I never had a day that cold. Some nights, sure. I left Canada the first time over the intolerable weather and it's happening again soon I suspect. Anyway, 25 yards over the bench -- deliberate fire, two handed -- produced this with my 135 grain Ford Light Blue powdercoated bullet from my 8-cavity MP Mihec mold (1080 fps) on my much shot-up target:
By San Miguel PPC Standards, that's acceptable but it could be better. At the same time, I was uncomfortable because of the cold (of which I have zero interest in acclimating to) and the gun was 100% stock. No "M*Carbo spring kit" installed, no action work, no sight changes -- nothing. And yet, acceptable. I could not resist firing a 5-shot, Bullseye style group from 25 yards taking my merry-sweet-time with one-hand in the pocket and shooting with only my right-hand unsupported to produce this:
I simply could not have done that with any Glock, not even my highly customized one in Mexico (which had a trigger so sweet I had to change it back because I felt uncomfortable using it "inside the pants" in
real life). My Mexican 1911 would have perhaps only equaled this. My shooting buddy was awed. To say the least. I put on a "only 4 in-the-white?" grimace but I was quite amazed myself. And pleased.
I only fired 10 shots at 50 yards because again: I don't like the cold. However, the results left me pleased. I got this Beretta off of a forum member and did no sight adjustments but it seemed to be "on" for my 135 grain loading. Our "desired spec" for a 50-yard load is that everything stays in the 9 ring. My 10 shot attempt at 50, over the bench two-handed and shooting deliberately produced 9 shots inside the 9-ring and one just outside of it. I am convinced that this Beretta will make the cut with a little TLC to the trigger (basically: install M*Carbo spring kit) and perhaps look at a different rear sight.
As to a rear-sight for the Beretta, my own solution to "sighting over-top of the suppressor" was to install a picatinney rail sight that is available for just such a problem so that a reflex sight could be mounted for suppressor use. My own Glock in Mexico had such a sight and I was working on the idea when it became necessary to "step-out" of Paradise for a 6.5 year return to the salt mine.
The combination worked just fine on the Glock. I am thinking that such a rear-sight would give me an extra half-inch sight radius and perhaps a slightly thinner rear notch (Beretta standard is a .150 notch, slightly thinner might help at 50, who knows without trying?). Anyway, for what it's worth, this is how we would answer your question on how to evaluate handgun accuracy in the Mexican Clubs. I might point out also, that snubby revolvers are obviously harder to shoot well, but often are quite accurate "off the bench" in their own right. But with thin concealment grips and powerful loads meant to actually stop an aggresive, well-armed opponent -- yes, all that goes out the window.
And yes, once I have a Mexican Beretta, I'll want it suppressor capable anyway. Too ideal for home-defense, which is totally legal and expected in the Mex.
