HOW LIGHT IS TOO LIGHT?

BigUglyMan said:
You're probably right, but a pencil profile barrel is more inclined to wander as it warms up. They can be a real bastard off the bench when you're developing loads. The last three big game animals that I have shot were with carbon wrapped barrels in 28 Nosler. To get a 26" barrel of the same profile would be a boat anchor. I built my 300WM before carbon wrapped barrels were particularly available, and it's a chunk of rifle...12 pounds plus I believe, and that might have been before I swapped scopes on it. That same rifle with a carbon wrapped barrel would be significantly lighter and far more fun to carry.
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Yup, and that’s where these conversations always go… a carbon wrapped of the same profile is lighter… obviously. Lol.

But why isn’t there slimmer profile carbon wrapped barrels that compete with steel barrels for weight? A 1.250” straight does not act in the same manner as a pencil barrel wrapped in carbon fibre. If carbon wrapped barrels were lighter, than they would indeed be lighter.

Just more snake oil.
 
Bustercluck said:
Yup, and that’s where these conversations always go… a carbon wrapped of the same profile is lighter… obviously. Lol.

But why isn’t there slimmer profile carbon wrapped barrels that compete with steel barrels for weight? A 1.250” straight does not act in the same manner as a pencil barrel wrapped in carbon fibre. If carbon wrapped barrels were lighter, than they would indeed be lighter.

Just more snake oil.
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I believe that there is some amount of thickness of carbon fiber needed to equal the stiffness of a steel barrel. Carbon-wrapped barrel liners are generally quite small in diameter, so they wouldn't tolerate living life without the support of the carbon. And if the carbon could be thinner, it would be, because why would a company use more of an already expensive product if they didn't have to?

Just looking quickly and a 24" Proof barrel in 7mm bore in their Sendero contour is 3lb 1oz to 3lb 2oz, as opposed to 5lb for a similar steel barrel. A Bartelein 25" Remington sporter weight barrel is 3.1lb, so much of a muchness when compared to the carbon barrel. A 22" Featherweight Bartelein comes out at 2 to 2.3lb, depending on which contour you like. How much stiffer, if any, is a Sendero-contour carbon fiber barrel compared to a standard sporter? I don't know, but it would be interesting to know. Because if it isn't stiffer, it won't be more accurate.

But I think that it goes without saying that, if you want a long barrel, and the longer the barrel the more pronounced the difference, the only way to get around the weight penalty is to use a carbon wrapped barrel.
 
Bustercluck said:
Yup, and that’s where these conversations always go… a carbon wrapped of the same profile is lighter… obviously. Lol.

But why isn’t there slimmer profile carbon wrapped barrels that compete with steel barrels for weight? A 1.250” straight does not act in the same manner as a pencil barrel wrapped in carbon fibre. If carbon wrapped barrels were lighter, than they would indeed be lighter.

Just more snake oil.
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I think IBI makes a slim carbon wrapped.. Not sure about other companies but they are one I’ve seen offer more than one carbon profile. Where as most seem to offer the sendero profile or similar

B
 
Hand Skills said:
Hey Patrick,

There is no such thing as 'too light' when it comes to CARRYING a rifle.

When it comes to SHOOTING a rifle, weight adds stability and soaks up recoil allowing for more precision.

I went down the ultralight path a number of years ago, and there is a point where they become difficult for me to shoot well.

Some of this can be tamed with careful weight distribution, but shooting ULTRALIGHT rifles off-hand is quite an art form, and here physical fitness plays a bigger role than anyone wants to admit.

My comfort zone these days is;

7lb rifle - 300yd and in
8lb rifle - 400yd and in
9lb rifle - 500yd and in

If you've already got the barrel, get it spun up and start breaking it in with the stock you have..

Only YOU can answer the question.

I have had a couple of the Wildcat Ultralight stocks, and they are very rigid and great to shoot but these days I don't mind paying a bit of a weight penalty for better ergos. The Felso BH-1 comes in a little heavier, but the wider forend makes it easier to grip and more stable on a front rest. The way the palm swell flows into the thumb shelf is poetry. The negative comb reduces felt recoil and makes it easier to spot trace/impact and the toe line along bottom of the stock is a lot more shallow which I find much more 'rear rest friendly'. I really don't mind the extra 6 or 8 ounces, because the ergos help make my job as a driver easier. The stock plays a large part in how 'forgiving' a rifle is to shoot!

For what it's worth, from one nut to another 🤓
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Excellent comment! I am not into custom rifles or hunting big game with what I consider smaller calbers. I tried a Sako Finnlight in 300WinMag. It was accurate but not comfortable to shoot. Replaced it with a regular Sako 75, same caliber. Much easier to shoot in field positions. Load development with that rifle was no problem. Load development with the Finnlight was no fun and a short lived trial. On every sheep hunt I have gone on I have seen grizzly sign or grizzlies . For that reason a rifle of at least 30cal with a 180gr or bigger premium bullet is my idea of "comfortable". A lightweight super fast smaller caliber may work but I feel better with something a bit bigger that I know will work. Cheers!
 
Total gun weight depends on the rifle and cartridge to me. My 308 win with a wildcat stock is 6lbs 5oz and you notice the recoil off the bench but its not un pleasant. I wouldn't want my 300wsm in the same weight of rifle so its a tikka mounted in a bell and carlson stock and I find it to be a nice touch. The fit and feel of the wildcat stocks are un matched, they are pricey but very high quality.
 
Re; Pencil Barrels

I think most forget that pencil barrels like Rem Mtn’s or say Weatherby #1 or #2 profiles and the like are typically on rifles designed and marketed for a single shot and/or possible follow up shot at best.

If you’re wanting to get practise or load development rounds in at the bench it’s simply not conducive to barrels with dia’s of say .500-.600 at all.

Yes, a bit of an itch with a B, but if you show some patience and know this going in then either the practise or load development can still be done.. albeit at a slower pace. Best to take a secondary setup while you waitt in between shots of three to cool down and then resume.

If you can’t abide or don’t have the patience for the above, a regular profile barrel will still suit you well and you can lose weight elsewhere (Stock) if needed.
 
Dogleg said:
A bricklayer knows exactly what his project is going to look like before he starts, the precise location of every brick and why it would be wrong or look stupid done another way. He doesn’t just stack bricks hoping it all works out. We should be more like the bricklayer.🤣
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Quite possibly the wisest and most insightful post you've ever made. And I know it comes from a whole lot of been-there-done-that! :)

In further support, I'd simply offer this -- the two best custom rifles I own came about from telling the gunsmith where I wanted to end up in terms of function and aesthetics, and then keeping my nose out of the project for the years to took to produce a finished rifle. Choose the right smith, and then trust your choice. If it all goes well, you'll end up where I am ... I have a bunch of guns, and a Ralf Martini, and a Rigby.
 
4 1/4# 416 would be ???????? I thought my tc encore 375hh at 6 1/4# was enough after getting sucker punched in lips sighting in the peeps. Depending on caliber 6# 308 is good and like 7- 8# in 9.3x62 class
 
keith mokry said:
4 1/4# 416 would be ???????? I thought my tc encore 375hh at 6 1/4# was enough after getting sucker punched in lips sighting in the peeps. Depending on caliber 6# 308 is good and like 7- 8# in 9.3x62 class
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Just using typical loadings from
the Nosler site it would work out to 142 foot pounds of recoil. To put that in perspective its about the same as 8 maybe 9 standard weight 30-06s going off at the same time. Or somewhere around double that of my 458 Lott.
 
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Always feels more stable with a little weight on a rifle. Some 22s are hard to shoot for me if they are real light because they don't settle it seems
 
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Ideally one would have a 22lr built exactly like his favorite big game rifle, same weight, same trigger, same fit! I know it exist and that some actually have that, but usually it means custom rifle or semi custom like parkwest or something like that and that is prohibitive for me.
 
DGY said:
Ideally one would have a 22lr built exactly like his favorite big game rifle, same weight, same trigger, same fit! I know it exist and that some actually have that, but usually it means custom rifle or semi custom like parkwest or something like that and that is prohibitive for me.
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I have a 223 Rem barrel for my Tikka hunting rifle for offseason practice.
 
Most people miss that fact that WHERE you put the weight is probably equally important to the total amount. Obviously total weight is a compromise specific to each situation and the best you are going to do is find the least worst. But consider that a barbell and a cannonball of the same mass are going to handle completely differently, the same applies to your rifle. Centralized mass = quick handling, perimeter weighted = stability.

Center of mass (balance point) is important as well. Everyone will have a preference where they like fore and aft balance, but have you considered vertical? Move the center of mass UP and you can eliminate muzzle lift at the cost of feeling 'top heavy' and gross. Move it down and the rifle feels better but has more muzzle lift (shoulder induced muzzle lift is secondary to <inertia vs center-of-mass> in most rifles). Something as simple as scope weight and ring height can make a big difference here.

Same as how a recoil pad does not reduce recoil, but it sure as heck changes how you experience it: Moving the weight around a rifle around can have similar effects.

All that being said, there is often not much you can do about it. In my personal experience, as I improve my fundamentals it matters less anyway.


P.S.
I put a Bell and Carlson on my Vanguard. It weighs almost the same as the factory stock but is balanced more towards the fore-end. Recoil was never an issue with that rifle anyway so I can't speak to that but my cold bore POI shift went away. Success.
 
ShrtRnd said:
Re; Pencil Barrels

I think most forget that pencil barrels like Rem Mtn’s or say Weatherby #1 or #2 profiles and the like are typically on rifles designed and marketed for a single shot and/or possible follow up shot at best.

If you’re wanting to get practise or load development rounds in at the bench it’s simply not conducive to barrels with dia’s of say .500-.600 at all.

Yes, a bit of an itch with a B, but if you show some patience and know this going in then either the practise or load development can still be done.. albeit at a slower pace. Best to take a secondary setup while you waitt in between shots of three to cool down and then resume.

If you can’t abide or don’t have the patience for the above, a regular profile barrel will still suit you well and you can lose weight elsewhere (Stock) if needed.
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I could not fathom having a pencil barrel with a .500 -.600 muzzle diameter. I have factory rifles with a minmum of .610, personally that is low however, awesome shooters. My current custom rifles have a muzzle diameter of .640, .650 and .680, all 27" in length, bloody accurate, accompanied with ultra velocities!

There are more advantages for me to having a heavier rifle than a featherweight version; especially at the rifle range, conducting load development.
 
When shooting the laws of physics always get in the way of reality. Everybody wants a rifle with the ability to blow the dust off a chalk line for a half a mile, but no recoil. That ain't going to happen, yet, but I'm sure somebody's working on it. Light rifles make offhand shooting difficult due to the lack of initial stability, a heavy rifle, especially one with a long barrel makes a beautiful freehand shooting gun. That's why the real fancy silhouette shooters have reverse tapers on their barrel to get more weight out front. An object at rest tends to stay at rest the heavier the object, the harder it is to move, or in the case of shooting less shaking. Freehand shooting a light rifle takes lots of practice. Shooting a light rifle off the bench takes lots of grit, something I've been running out of in my old age. I never shoot off my bench, ( 90% of the time in my case the hood of my truck) without a good shooting, vest or pad. I have no way to prove it, but I'm sure it reduces the felt recoil by 50%. At one time I had my 300 WSM down to under 7 lbs, freehand shooting was difficult, bench rest shooting was nasty. I've since forward waited the stock now it's 8.1 lbs , the recoil was noticeably lighter, only 28 ft lbs now, and freehand shooting is greatly improved.
 
track said:
I could not fathom having a pencil barrel with a .500 -.600 muzzle diameter. I have factory rifles with a minmum of .610, personally that is low however, awesome shooters. My current custom rifles have a muzzle diameter of .640, .650 and .680, all 27" in length, bloody accurate, accompanied with ultra velocities!

There are more advantages for me to having a heavier rifle than a featherweight version; especially at the rifle range, conducting load development.
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Maybe I’ve just become accustomed to or spoiled by them over the last decade or so, only knowing that dia range w/my 700 Mtn, Mk77 UL now and a previous Wby VG2?

Reality is I could get along just fine with a typical .625-.650dia easily enough, just like most people.

I do agree on a heavier rifle being more accurate during load development. Or in the very least easier to work with for consecutive 3-5rnd groupings.

I will probably continue to gravitate towards those factory offerings in that .550-.625dia range for the time being at any rate.
 
bearhunter said:
Patrick, not dissing you, but unless the person answering your query weighs exactly what you weigh, is the same height, has the same neck length, and trigger pull length, your query is not going to get you meaningful results.

You need to ask "why a light firearm is needed" before anything else. A pound one way or the other isn't going to make enough difference in weight, other than increasing or decreasing a bit of felt recoil.

Are you packing this rifle up mountains, with a heavy pack on your back?

Light rifles tend to have ho hum balance IMHO.

Keep your rifle within 8-10 pounds, and all will be well.
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I understand that but if I can shave a pound or two off im going too. For sheep hunting doing 15-20km a day up and down mtns a lb or 2 can make a massive difference. Not only that but if you can shave weight off of everything you can shave you total weight from 70lb to 60lb
 
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