Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Maybe with factory ammo. When handloaded to their potential, the '06 can't keep up to the 7RM. There's no replacement for displacement 
How much fps, weight or diameter does it take to make a difference?
- Thread starter bcsteve
- Start date
You sure have that right. I was chronographing my 30-06 at the range one evening when a fellow came along with with his 7 mag. He asked if he could use my chrono, because he had loaded some "hot" loads and wanted to see what they would do.
Bottom line, his "hot" loads were less than the figures from my 30-06, that he had just seen!
He was very disgruntled.
LongBomber
CGN Regular
- Location
- Fernie, bc
For me there is not much difference between a 30-06, 7mm rem mag, 270 win, 300 win/wsm. I had have them all (still do except the 270), and really I would use any one of them for the same shot as the other. But there is a difference when you step up to one of the bigger 338's (RUM, 338-378, 38 excaliber..etc) when the exit would on a deer can fit a ice cream pail right in, and a shot through the shoulders makes a small deer pop like a gopher shot with a 22-250 there is a difference in killing power. When the would channel is large enough to fit a soccer ball without touching the sides... you get the idea. And yes a deer shot in the ass with a 300rum/200gr accubond will die, ask my little brother... to bad it cost an entire quarter with a 5" diameter hole right through it.
Most of our comparisons are so close that there is no difference, ie. 308 vs 30-06, but there is a noticeable difference between a 338rum and a 308. How big does the gap in weight/velocity/diameter.. need to be before there is a difference? Guys will be arguing that long after all of us have been pushing up daisies.
Most of our comparisons are so close that there is no difference, ie. 308 vs 30-06, but there is a noticeable difference between a 338rum and a 308. How big does the gap in weight/velocity/diameter.. need to be before there is a difference? Guys will be arguing that long after all of us have been pushing up daisies.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
What chrono did you get?
Define "killing power" for us...
If a 7mm 140gr bullet passes through a large deer's lungs and out the other side, shot from a 7mm-08, how would making that bullet faster in the 7mmRM kill the deer better?
Are you saying that more, more dead, is better than more dead, or just better than regular dead?
What would make the biggest difference on game?
1- Bullet diameter: Going from a .264 Win Mag to a 7mm Rem Mag to a .300 Win Mag to a .338 Win Mag.
2- Velocity: Going from a .308 Win to a .30-06 to a .300 Win Mag to a .300 Ultra Mag.
3- Bullet weight: .30-06 going from a 125gr to 150gr to 180gr to 200gr and 220gr.
At what point in those increases do you start to see a difference from the first one mentioned?
I dunno, going back to my .308 vs. .30-06 example it would probably make some difference (320fps difference, same weight and caliber) - that's almost 700lbs/ft of energy. No small thing, that.
But to *really* see a difference? I think to improve on my '06 by a noticeable amount I'd be wanting something like a .338 Winchester Magnum pushing some 225's, more diameter and more weight, still driven to similar velocities suitable for similar ranged shots, and edging out my '06 by another 700 lbs/ft of energy.
Jordan Smith
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Another reason for using a chrono while you work up a load. A 7RM should be able to beat any 30-06 for velocity with similar sized bullets.
Agreed. I can't help the fact that someone hasn't a clue how to develop a load for a given cartridge.
What laws?
In BC you can hunt grizzly bear with a .17 caliber centerfire.
(Although bison pretty much has a minimum of .308 or .30-06 or so)
Making the argument that velocity is the most fundamental ingredient to killing power based on how it affects kinetic energy is true mathematically, but realistically there is one thing that hinders that notion. As soon as a bullet passes through an animal, the amount of energy that it has doesn't mean a darn. The energy has not been transferred to the animal, there is energy that is retained when the bullet leaves the exit wound.
A 7-08 and a 7mmRM that both pass through an animal have just accomplished the exact same thing, it doesn't matter if the 7mmRM passed through faster, they both transferred the same amount of energy and created a hole roughly the same size.
Going even further, a 170 gr bullet shot from a 30-30 that almost makes it through a moose but stops on the far hide could realistically have transferred just as much energy to a moose as a 180 gr bullet that passes through the moose shot from a 300 win mag.
I am keeping calibers the same for argument of wound channel size. Assuming the velocity is sufficient enough to allow full expansion of the bullet, the most efficient shot would allow the bullet to completely penetrate an animal and just come out the other side before falling tot the ground.
So if a 140 gr bullet traveling at 2800 fps passes through an animal, saying that the same bullet traveling at 3300 will do anything different does not make sense. Most modern bullets shot out of most guns will pass through the intended game. even large moose and elk.
Personally, I feel as though going up one to two calibre sizes and increasing velocity and bullet weight gives me added killing power. no empirical formula about it, just personal preference. I have a 7mm-08, the next step up is a 300 WM. I shoot 140's from the 7-08 and 180's from the 300. I don't feel I need anything to fill that gap (but i'll definitely convince myself that I do so I can buy another gun ) I also have a 6mm Rem (to satisfy southern ontario hunting regulations) and I don't feel there is any difference in killing power between that and the 7-08. I also feel that the 7-08 can take most things that I would use the 300 WM on. I own a 223 and feel that for what I use the 6mm for, there isn't a huge difference. but the 223 is cheaper to shoot at the range .
My grandfather shot many many moose with a 38-55. The muzzle energy from that gun would indicate that it is not powerful enough to kill a moose. I would not hesitate to shoot a moose with it. Although it is not my usual hunting gun, I will definitely use it on a moose someday soon just for nostalgia sake
A 7-08 and a 7mmRM that both pass through an animal have just accomplished the exact same thing, it doesn't matter if the 7mmRM passed through faster, they both transferred the same amount of energy and created a hole roughly the same size.
Going even further, a 170 gr bullet shot from a 30-30 that almost makes it through a moose but stops on the far hide could realistically have transferred just as much energy to a moose as a 180 gr bullet that passes through the moose shot from a 300 win mag.
I am keeping calibers the same for argument of wound channel size. Assuming the velocity is sufficient enough to allow full expansion of the bullet, the most efficient shot would allow the bullet to completely penetrate an animal and just come out the other side before falling tot the ground.
So if a 140 gr bullet traveling at 2800 fps passes through an animal, saying that the same bullet traveling at 3300 will do anything different does not make sense. Most modern bullets shot out of most guns will pass through the intended game. even large moose and elk.
Personally, I feel as though going up one to two calibre sizes and increasing velocity and bullet weight gives me added killing power. no empirical formula about it, just personal preference. I have a 7mm-08, the next step up is a 300 WM. I shoot 140's from the 7-08 and 180's from the 300. I don't feel I need anything to fill that gap (but i'll definitely convince myself that I do so I can buy another gun
) I also have a 6mm Rem (to satisfy southern ontario hunting regulations) and I don't feel there is any difference in killing power between that and the 7-08. I also feel that the 7-08 can take most things that I would use the 300 WM on. I own a 223 and feel that for what I use the 6mm for, there isn't a huge difference. but the 223 is cheaper to shoot at the range .My grandfather shot many many moose with a 38-55. The muzzle energy from that gun would indicate that it is not powerful enough to kill a moose. I would not hesitate to shoot a moose with it. Although it is not my usual hunting gun, I will definitely use it on a moose someday soon just for nostalgia sake
What laws?
In BC you can hunt grizzly bear with a .17 caliber centerfire.
(Although bison pretty much has a minimum of .308 or .30-06 or so)
ammunition to hunt bison must be constructed with
a 175 grain or larger bullet, which retains 2,712 joules
(2,000 ft lbs) or more energy at 100 m.
It used to be .22 cal centerfire
tylerjwitty
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Ontario
killing power. if i shot a cement block, more energy will strike the cement block. very simple im sure you can grasp this concept.
there fore when i take the 30-06 hunting for rabbits it kills the rabbit extra dead more the a already or is dead. but if a moose attacks me for shooting the rabbits i still have my "killing power"
see simple!!
And that is the only law like that in BC. Other than that it's just "no rimfire" or "no shotgun" or "no single projectile"
I'm glad we don't have the silly extra laws some other provinces do.
I see your point, but in many cases I have found the higher impact velocities fully activates or expands the bullet...Never more so than with 338 bullets.
I have shot game with .338 225 partitions from 2400fps to 3300fps (and while the end result is always death no matter velocity) I can assure the wound cavity is much more substantial at 3300fps.
The other item I found interesting is when shot at 338Win velocities deer normally bounce 10-20 yards then tip over....Yet the effect of the same bullet at 3200-3300fps is electric....To say the least!
To say a bore size absolutely brings an increase in killing power is a bit misleading as well. For instance I find the 300Win kills deer quicker than the 338Win....Why is that???
I suspect the lightly constructed 30cal bullets go off like a bomb while the heavy 338Win bullets don't get a real workout until they hit something real big.
Of course the 338 is the more substantial choice on heavy game, but it illuminates the relationship between bullet velocity, bullet construction, and impact media.
I think the TSX kills a bit better because it expands so violently at almost every speed. Once again the TSX becomes more violent at higher speed.
With a 338Win you can eat right up to the bullet hole right?
Well a 225grTSX at 3300fps blew a whitetails far shoulder clean off...As in gone...Completely!
Not ideal,
eek but once again there is a bit more killing power there.To answer BCSteve's question I think the increase in velocity required to notice a difference depends upon the size of game, the bullet and how it is constructed....Which (I think) explains why I can't see much (if any) difference in killing power between a 300Wby and a 30-06.
Perhaps the real question is does it matter?
- Location
- Prince Albert, Sk
Cement blocks???
Thought we were shooting game???
Pretty hard to bone out cement for sausage meat.
On game performance is critical, simple also. Remember a thin jacketed bullet can fragment at high velocities,thus leaving a possible wounded animal. In the Nosler reloading manual the author states the effects of a think jacketed bullet, 300 Win, Magnum vs a moose, I believe it was several shots(4 to 6) to eventually kill the animal.A .257 with a properly constructed bullet can do that in one shot, as will the .300.
Thought we were shooting game???
Pretty hard to bone out cement for sausage meat.
On game performance is critical, simple also. Remember a thin jacketed bullet can fragment at high velocities,thus leaving a possible wounded animal. In the Nosler reloading manual the author states the effects of a think jacketed bullet, 300 Win, Magnum vs a moose, I believe it was several shots(4 to 6) to eventually kill the animal.A .257 with a properly constructed bullet can do that in one shot, as will the .300.
Another reason for using a chrono while you work up a load. A 7RM should be able to beat any 30-06 for velocity with similar sized bullets.
Sure, the bigger case has more potential. There is another factor at work though; the larger base area of the larger caliber bullet allows the larger diameter bullet to get a little free velocity at the same pressure level. An example with cases the same size would be a .270 with 150 and a .35 Whelen with a similar weight pistol bullet. You can get the ole Whelen absolultely screaming with a case exactly the same size.
My point was that it is easy to make two calibers that are in the same general ballpark overlap.If you choose loads based on what shot the best in individual rifles like many or most people do, they can trade places. A fast barrel can make more difference on the same cartridge than the difference between chamberings,
hell sometimes you can get more variation from shot to shot than there is between cartridges.
This is a long way around of getting back to this: When people are compareing calibers, they may not be compareing what they think they are. It might not be apples to oranges, it could be pictures of apples and oranges, or descriptions of apples and oranges.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
When we think of big game, we normally think of game that is heavier than 100 pounds, sometimes much much heavier. To my way of thinking, a modern big game rifle with a bore diameter of 6.5 is the minimum that should be considered as a general purpose big game cartridge given today's technology. General purpose to me means that the rifle might be called on to kill non-dangerous animals that weigh as little as 100 pounds or as much as 1 ton. Provided that a modern cartridge with a bullet diameter of 6.5 is chosen, provided a bullet is chosen that is appropriate to the size of the game, and provided that the shot is made within the range limitations of the cartridge and marksman, the specific cartridge that the rifle is chambered for is irrelevant.
To kill an animal in a humane fashion requires an impact velocity that is within the bullet's design parameter; fast enough to promote expansion, if in fact it is an expanding bullet, without resulting in failure. Failure under these circumstances could be defined as a bullet which gives up so much mass on impact as to impede sufficient straight-line penetration in order to achieve the desired result. Thus not only must the impact velocity be considered, but also the density of the target. The bullet must have enough momentum to ensure there is sufficient penetration to that the wound volume interrupts the oxygenated blood flow from reaching the brain, regardless of the degree of expansion which occurs.
Cast bullets seem to have a maximum velocity of about 2000 fps when loaded in modern cartridges. A modern cartridge loaded with an expanding jacketed bullet appears to work best when the impact velocity exceeds 1700 fps, while the first cartridges that where developed in the mid 19th Century seldom exceed 1500 fps at the muzzle when loaded with powders that are comparable with what was available in the day. Cup and core bullets become unreliable when their impact velocity on game exceeds 2700 fps, where bonded and mono-metal bullets seem to handle high velocity impacts when we drive them as fast as we can, about 5000 fps in some circumstances.
A bullet must be chosen with a particular purpose in mind. A .30 caliber 150 gr bullet is normally considered a first class choice for deer hunting, but you wouldn't choose the same .30/150 gr bullet to load in a .30-378 that would be suitable in a .30/30. Some animals are so large that a solid, non-expanding bullet is considered superior to any soft point, given the great depth that the bullet must penetrate very dense tissue and bone. Thus while there is little difference in which cartridge we choose for game, providing it is a suitable choice for the range at which we intend to shoot, our choice of bullet, in a particular cartridge, for a particular game animal, can be critical to the success or failure of our endeavor.
I once held that accuracy was the most important ingredient when making a shot on game. I have since come to a different point of view. A good marksman can almost never shoot up to his rifle in the field, and only a few can on the rifle range. Don't believe it? Then show me your half minute group that you fired off-hand. Marksmanship is far more important than a rifle's intrinsic accuracy, and after having seen various bullets fail on live targets, I am now of the opinion that the choice of bullet is of equal importance as marksmanship.
To kill an animal in a humane fashion requires an impact velocity that is within the bullet's design parameter; fast enough to promote expansion, if in fact it is an expanding bullet, without resulting in failure. Failure under these circumstances could be defined as a bullet which gives up so much mass on impact as to impede sufficient straight-line penetration in order to achieve the desired result. Thus not only must the impact velocity be considered, but also the density of the target. The bullet must have enough momentum to ensure there is sufficient penetration to that the wound volume interrupts the oxygenated blood flow from reaching the brain, regardless of the degree of expansion which occurs.
Cast bullets seem to have a maximum velocity of about 2000 fps when loaded in modern cartridges. A modern cartridge loaded with an expanding jacketed bullet appears to work best when the impact velocity exceeds 1700 fps, while the first cartridges that where developed in the mid 19th Century seldom exceed 1500 fps at the muzzle when loaded with powders that are comparable with what was available in the day. Cup and core bullets become unreliable when their impact velocity on game exceeds 2700 fps, where bonded and mono-metal bullets seem to handle high velocity impacts when we drive them as fast as we can, about 5000 fps in some circumstances.
A bullet must be chosen with a particular purpose in mind. A .30 caliber 150 gr bullet is normally considered a first class choice for deer hunting, but you wouldn't choose the same .30/150 gr bullet to load in a .30-378 that would be suitable in a .30/30. Some animals are so large that a solid, non-expanding bullet is considered superior to any soft point, given the great depth that the bullet must penetrate very dense tissue and bone. Thus while there is little difference in which cartridge we choose for game, providing it is a suitable choice for the range at which we intend to shoot, our choice of bullet, in a particular cartridge, for a particular game animal, can be critical to the success or failure of our endeavor.
I once held that accuracy was the most important ingredient when making a shot on game. I have since come to a different point of view. A good marksman can almost never shoot up to his rifle in the field, and only a few can on the rifle range. Don't believe it? Then show me your half minute group that you fired off-hand. Marksmanship is far more important than a rifle's intrinsic accuracy, and after having seen various bullets fail on live targets, I am now of the opinion that the choice of bullet is of equal importance as marksmanship.
