- Location
- Jameson, SK
The hornady comparators and a nice set of calipers can be very telling.....
How much is too much neck tension? Range update!
- Thread starter MuthaFunk
- Start date
The hornady comparators and a nice set of calipers can be very telling.....
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I have a variety of reloading articles on my website - TECH section. That will help you get started.
Bedding becomes important... floating the barrel as much as possible will also help. Improve the trigger, improve the sights.
Good scale, good brass prep, proper load tuning, chronograph, annealing, consistent shooting.... these are just the basics towards precision shooting.
The limitation to your advancement is simply the rifle may not be good enough to show you if you are improving your techniques. If you have a 1 1/2MOA rifle, no matter what you do, that is all it will provide. When you get a 1/2 min rifle and now you are loading to that level of performance, you will see the benefits of all the niggly stuff we do,
Because reloading and shooting is getting expensive, spending alot of time with lesser gear - rifle, optics, rests, set up - is just wasting resources IF you truly want to improve and see that you are improving.
Jerry
Apparently OP most on here aren't reading what you are asking............a couple have the right idea. Large ES numbers are, from my experience, caused by too light a load giving too light a pressure curve, and has absolutely nothing to do with groups at 100 mtrs. I had a very light load for a 22-250 once upon a time that would consistently put five shots into 3/8" at 100 mtrs, I shot more than 10 groups like this in a matter of a couple months with that load..............Then I chronographed it and found it was only going 3300 fps with a 52gn HPBT match Sierra and my ES was 115 fps for five rounds.........If you start upping your loads or change powders and chronograph your test loads I would bet 10 bucks you will see your ES start to get smaller and smaller as your load and pressure go up. Some of the tightest ESs I have experienced have been just before the primer falls out of the case when extracted from the chamber........this is extreme of course but it is also the truth. I have also experienced, with great consistently, the finest groups from many rifles at this same pressure node............Women and guns........"Some like it hot"
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Welcome to reloading dude!!!!
"Your load is not hot enough" ....."you're gonna blow up your gun"......"turn your necks"......"neck turning won't matter unless you have a tight chamber"......"neck sizing is the bestest"....."FL sizing makes more sense"......"bushing dies are useless without turning"...."bushing dies are crucial"....."never touch your powder"....."pinch your powder with your fingers".....
"Your load is not hot enough" ....."you're gonna blow up your gun"......"turn your necks"......"neck turning won't matter unless you have a tight chamber"......"neck sizing is the bestest"....."FL sizing makes more sense"......"bushing dies are useless without turning"...."bushing dies are crucial"....."never touch your powder"....."pinch your powder with your fingers".....
I've been on your web site Jerry and appreciate all the info you have there! It's been very helpful. I do all I can to get my reloads working best. I trim to equal lengths after every shooting, I anneal with tempilaque at 700 deg F every 3 firings. I have a Chrony brand chronograph which may be the cause of some of my error. I tried to load tune and found nodes that I began to work at but my Chrony results are poor. The ES/SD readings I'm getting are the same as the milsurp ammo I'm shooting. I have to believe that hand loading when done properly should grant better performance than I get with milsurp ammo.
I weigh my bullets and group them into 5's. I have three scales that I use to compare loads before I charge. The best one is supposed to be within. .01 gr so .15 grains.
This is the rifle I'm making loads for:
I put pillars in when I bedded it into the stock. Free floated. Cut and crowned at 24". I did a trigger job that's really quite nice for a home milsurp deal. The bore is beautiful and slugs out to .311. The Scope is a X16 power with 1/8" MOA adjustment turrets which is good enough for me at 100 M. It seems to hold zero fine through hundreds of rounds now.
Here's a thread on the build if anyone cares to see:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1317214-Almost-done-my-entire-Bubba-Mosin!-Purists-need-not-open-this-thread!!!-(pic-heavy)?highlight=almost+done+my+bubba+mosin
It shoots pretty good! I have to think that I should be able to do better than milsurp ammo.
So the general consensus is that it's not likely the fact I'm neck sizing with a .308 mandrill and using .311 SMK's. Most people seem to think despite my chrony readings around ES = 75 fps and SD =25 fps my hand loads are likely fine and it's just my rifle that's causing much of that ES.
I noticed when I printed some ladder targets I had to omit quite a few shots either because my poor shooting or an issue with the load. I knew that if the charge went up and the bullet landed lower than the last AND my chrony readings displayed a higher muzzle velocity it would have been me who pulled the shot. Unfortunately, many of those shots I had to omit were due to lower chrony MV readings despite the charge going up. The shot placement on the target would match the lower MV from the Chrony. This is what has led me to believe my loads are the issue. Everything else seems to be doing it's job.
Thanks to all who have offered their advise here. I really appreciate this community and hope one day I can contribute meaningfully to help others.
Hmmm. There could be something to this... Perhaps I should run another ladder test and grab the highest node. I know the milsurp ammo that shoots so great is not a particularly hot load. Approx 2650-2700 fps with 150 gr pill. I was trying to keep the pressures in that area with my hand loads of 175gr SMK's. At 44.3 grs Varget I'm seeing around 2500 fps
Lol! Thanks for the post.
It's true I feel like my head is spinning. I'd love to figure this out. I'll get to the bottom of it soon I hope.
Lol! Thanks for the post.
It's true I feel like my head is spinning. I'd love to figure this out. I'll get to the bottom of it soon I hope.
Tagged...I have nothing to offer OP other than I share the same experience with a sporterized 303B on this end. At that time I was making rounds with the old Lee Loader.
Some great leads here on what to try now in my case and now that I'm into a press and following some good advice from the nutz on here. I appreciate threads like this. I now have to fit that rifle into the queue. Thanks lol.
I've got to say this...that rifle is hopped! Wow. NICE!!!!
Regards
Ron
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Lol! Thanks for the post.
It's true I feel like my head is spinning. I'd love to figure this out. I'll get to the bottom of it soon I hope.
No dude, no you won't......none of us will.....
That's not meant to be sad, that's the fun of it!!!!!
-J.
You might want to try playing with seating depth. Setting bullets to just touch the landes can cause erratic ES because seated bullets will vary in length to the ogive. This will cause some to be jammed and some will not touch. Try jamming 10 thou.
I ran a test once with 10 shot groups. One batch of brass was sized with the expander button installed. the other batch had no expander - max tension.
max tension was quite a bit better. Like half the size.
If you have a big ES, add more powder.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
That's very true. If you're right on the lands and the OAL is off (they can easily be .020 or more off) then you have a somewhat compressed load. I'd even back off .030 or .040 and see what happens. You can always creep in once your comparator arrives.
The Hornady Lock n' Load OAL gauge is 50$ well spent as well. Order them at the same time as your comp's!!!! X-Reload baby!!!
Your premise is flawed.........Just because your military ammo goes a certain velocity does not necessarily mean it is lower pressure. The military have much different criteria they use, when specifying ammo, than does the average reloader. Their main concerns are neither velocity or accuracy, although the ammo must meet certain criteria in these areas as well, but reliability is number one. They may use a much faster powder than you would because of ignition reliability and lack of temperature sensitivity. Although this load may produce relatively low velocities does not necessarily mean it produces low pressure. Unless you know exactly what powder and primer is used to produce a certain velocity in your rifle, with a certain bullet, you cannot extrapolate any information from such a load what-so-ever.
Your rifle has little or nothing to do with ES or SD, as it remains a constant, therefore it cannot affect these numbers.........pressure is the only variable that affects ES and SD. Certain powders must attain and work above certain pressure thresholds to burn consistently and produce minimum pressure variations during the length of it's burn time. Certain other factors can affect the pressure curve such as inconsistent bullet weight and diameters, but it is the pressure variations that causes the ES and SD.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I've been on your web site Jerry and appreciate all the info you have there! It's been very helpful. I do all I can to get my reloads working best. I trim to equal lengths after every shooting, I anneal with tempilaque at 700 deg F every 3 firings. I have a Chrony brand chronograph which may be the cause of some of my error. I tried to load tune and found nodes that I began to work at but my Chrony results are poor. The ES/SD readings I'm getting are the same as the milsurp ammo I'm shooting. I have to believe that hand loading when done properly should grant better performance than I get with milsurp ammo.
I weigh my bullets and group them into 5's. I have three scales that I use to compare loads before I charge. The best one is supposed to be within. .01 gr so .15 grains.
This is the rifle I'm making loads for:
I put pillars in when I bedded it into the stock. Free floated. Cut and crowned at 24". I did a trigger job that's really quite nice for a home milsurp deal. The bore is beautiful and slugs out to .311. The Scope is a X16 power with 1/8" MOA adjustment turrets which is good enough for me at 100 M. It seems to hold zero fine through hundreds of rounds now.
Here's a thread on the build if anyone cares to see:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1317214-Almost-done-my-entire-Bubba-Mosin!-Purists-need-not-open-this-thread!!!-(pic-heavy)?highlight=almost+done+my+bubba+mosin
It shoots pretty good! I have to think that I should be able to do better than milsurp ammo.
So the general consensus is that it's not likely the fact I'm neck sizing with a .308 mandrill and using .311 SMK's. Most people seem to think despite my chrony readings around ES = 75 fps and SD =25 fps my hand loads are likely fine and it's just my rifle that's causing much of that ES.
I noticed when I printed some ladder targets I had to omit quite a few shots either because my poor shooting or an issue with the load. I knew that if the charge went up and the bullet landed lower than the last AND my chrony readings displayed a higher muzzle velocity it would have been me who pulled the shot. Unfortunately, many of those shots I had to omit were due to lower chrony MV readings despite the charge going up. The shot placement on the target would match the lower MV from the Chrony. This is what has led me to believe my loads are the issue. Everything else seems to be doing it's job.
Thanks to all who have offered their advise here. I really appreciate this community and hope one day I can contribute meaningfully to help others.
This is the info you should have started with... now there is a very good idea of what you are shooting, how you are shooting and what the groups look like.
Consider the following:
first thing... get rid of that shooting rest/sled. They can lead to all sorts of bouncing and stringing and inconsistency. A good (not necessarily expensive) pedestal and rear bag will work wonders for your groups. I take back what I said earlier, you may very well have a superbly accurate MN and once you learn to have consistent follow through using proper rests, your load tuning is going to become a lot more clear.
Although you slugged the bore at 311", the barrel may prefer 310" bullets. Yes, there are solutions for that.
If you are using a sled because of recoil, stay with the lighter bullets from 123 to 150gr... plenty to choose from.
So start here and make sure that those flyers go away and you can start seeing what the actual grouping potential should be. If you have access to a pile of heavy sand bags, use these for front and rear suppot. Avoid clamping styles as they do the same thing as the sled.
Let us know how this changes your results... I bet it will be substantial. Don't get hung up on Chrony numbers. There is enough built in error with the clock to negate number crunching. Use it to get a general feel for the velocity. Let the target tell you what is working.
Jerry
Indeed this could be part of it. My guess is that I'm using high quality bullets that are Sierra Matchkings and their ogives should be consistent. My seating die is a Lee with a Lee classic cast press. There doesn't seem to be much room for variance there. I'll know more when I get a comparator but I suspect my seating depths are good. In the meantime it would t be hard to make up a batch right into the lands hair to try before I get into a other ladder test.
Very interesting! If I've learned anything from this thread it's that my neck tension is not likely the cause of my issues. Thanks for the post!
c-fbmi, I can see what your saying. Really I'm just kind of shooting in the dark. My first ladder test produced two nodes so I think I'll either try the higher one or realistically I'm likely going to make up a new one now that I'm a better shot.
Jerry, again thanks for your post. Your knowledge and background is appreciated. The sled in the photos is only used for display and working on the rifle. I use sandbags when I shoot and don't mind heavy kick. It's no thing for me to shoot 60-100 rounds of GP11 through my stock K31 with a scope. No recoil pad on that bad boy!
Thanks to all you fellas for your help. I think I have a path forward now. I'll keep posting how things go. Or make a new thread not related to neck tension.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
The ogives are not consistent in Sierra or Berger....they should be, but their nor
I've been on your web site Jerry and appreciate all the info you have there! It's been very helpful. I do all I can to get my reloads working best. I trim to equal lengths after every shooting, I anneal with tempilaque at 700 deg F every 3 firings. I have a Chrony brand chronograph which may be the cause of some of my error. I tried to load tune and found nodes that I began to work at but my Chrony results are poor. The ES/SD readings I'm getting are the same as the milsurp ammo I'm shooting. I have to believe that hand loading when done properly should grant better performance than I get with milsurp ammo.
I weigh my bullets and group them into 5's. I have three scales that I use to compare loads before I charge. The best one is supposed to be within. .01 gr so .15 grains.
This is the rifle I'm making loads for:
I put pillars in when I bedded it into the stock. Free floated. Cut and crowned at 24". I did a trigger job that's really quite nice for a home milsurp deal. The bore is beautiful and slugs out to .311. The Scope is a X16 power with 1/8" MOA adjustment turrets which is good enough for me at 100 M. It seems to hold zero fine through hundreds of rounds now.
Here's a thread on the build if anyone cares to see:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1317214-Almost-done-my-entire-Bubba-Mosin!-Purists-need-not-open-this-thread!!!-(pic-heavy)?highlight=almost+done+my+bubba+mosin
It shoots pretty good! I have to think that I should be able to do better than milsurp ammo.
So the general consensus is that it's not likely the fact I'm neck sizing with a .308 mandrill and using .311 SMK's. Most people seem to think despite my chrony readings around ES = 75 fps and SD =25 fps my hand loads are likely fine and it's just my rifle that's causing much of that ES.
I noticed when I printed some ladder targets I had to omit quite a few shots either because my poor shooting or an issue with the load. I knew that if the charge went up and the bullet landed lower than the last AND my chrony readings displayed a higher muzzle velocity it would have been me who pulled the shot. Unfortunately, many of those shots I had to omit were due to lower chrony MV readings despite the charge going up. The shot placement on the target would match the lower MV from the Chrony. This is what has led me to believe my loads are the issue. Everything else seems to be doing it's job.
Thanks to all who have offered their advise here. I really appreciate this community and hope one day I can contribute meaningfully to help others.
May I ask which range you are at in those pics?? I swear I've seen those exact same "Do Not Post Targets Here" Signs at the range I'm just about to join.
Aaron
Silverdale Gun Club
Need a hotter load before you worry about anything else. I don't mean velocity, I mean pressure. Rifle powders burn most consistently at higher pressures. Your powder burn isn't consistent because your load is too low pressure to be consistent.
