How small a group could I expect at 300 meters with factory ammo?

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Jeff000

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Shooting a rem 700 VL SS, 22-250, 50gr or 55gr hornady vmax factory ammo.

I can't tell a difference in 50gr and 55gr, but at 300 meters I can make a 88mm 4 shot group. Thats my best group, average is more like 95mm.

Shooting from a bi pod.

100m I can make a 24mm 4 shot group at best. But at 100m the 45gr vmax seems to do better. Average is about 27-28mm.

Does this seem about right for factory ammo? Should I try a different brand maybe? I've tried a few different brands, but couldn't really tell the difference, and just get the vmax at the best price.
I know working on my breathing and stuff will help too, but just wondering if its the ammo thats holding me back.
 
Obtunded said:
anything under 1MOA is a bonus. You are about there now. 1MOA is about 25mm at 100 yards or there abouts.
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so 1 moa at 300 would be about 75mm?

Was hoping to put off hand loads till next year, but I guess I might have to suck up that cost sooner. But I could for sure be more consistent now.


noneck180 said:
Is that a thumbhole?
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Ya it is, with the light color wood, its pretty nice, free floated barrel. The thumb hole took a bit to get used to, but now I kinda like it, feels natural to hold.
I keep meaning to take some pictures.
 
If you haven't done so yet. A good trigger job and bedding the action are two relatively inexpensive prospects that could significantly improve your group size. Hard to go sub MOA on group size fighting a 5 or 6 lb factory trigger.
 
noneck180 said:
LMAO,, thats a good one Ben,,


Those thumbholes are nice,,,

factory rifle + factory ammo + bipod + 3.5" 4 shot group at 300 yards= great shooting ( priceless) for everthing else there is Mastercard lol
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bipod and sandbag under the back :redface:
Just lucky where I have been able to shoot is very sheltered from any wind.
Just need to be consistent. I still get one shot every now and then where I have to think to myself wtf I was doing for that shot.


wapitiwhacker said:
If you haven't done so yet. A good trigger job and bedding the action are two relatively inexpensive prospects that could significantly improve your group size. Hard to go sub MOA on group size fighting a 5 or 6 lb factory trigger.
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I didn't think the trigger was that bad.
What is bedding? My main concern about sending it out for work is how long it takes.
 
This will give you a good idea of what bedding is all about. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220751

It basically tightens up the fit between action and stock to minimize the motion of the action within the stock, hopefully increasing accuracy.
Find someone with a well tuned trigger and compare it to your factory trigger normally you will see a big difference between the two, even if you think what you have is not bad.

Neither a trigger or bedding job should take a huge amount of time.
 
In one of my previous lives, I had access to five lots of Winchester 308 150 grain factory loadings. Using a Winchester Model 70T, one day a group would look really good, and a few days later . . . crap. To get a 2 inch group at 200 yards was good, but the next day it might be a four.
With one box from each lot, all the bullets were pulled and the powder weighed. The biggest variation was 2.1 grains of powder in one lot, and over the five lots, the variation was 3.5 of a powder that IMR4895 most resembled.
So how much inaccuracy is caused in factory loadings by inconsistent powder measurements might best be answered by asking . . . would any one load their bullets with even a 1 grain variation?
The follow up with this process was to segregate the brass by weight, and reconstruct the loads using Hornady 168 grain Match bullets. The first loads were in the neighbourhood of .5 MOA but it did produce results. The outfit then bought Federal Match.
 
With factory match ammo, it really depends: one type of ammo may work extremely well with one rifle, and be mediocre with another. That's only because factory match ammo tries to accomodate "most" rifles - if you're in that sweet spot, you're golden, otherwise you get mixed results. For example, I would get ½MOA easy with Federal GM (got ¼ a couple of times with photographic evidence), but about 0.75 MOA (give or take) with Hornady's offering. Note that, at the time that I was using factory, my shooting was restricted to 200yds max.

Hope this gives you an idea of the "factory" game.
 
A factory rifle with decent factory ammo will often deliver 1 or 2 MOA. Sometimes smaller is possible, which is nice if it happens, but it can't be counted on.

1 MOA at 300 metres is about 85mm, so you are shooting 1.0-1.1 MOA. This is good, by the way - well done! Smaller groups might be possible, but not necessarily. I don't know how important smaller groups are to you, i.e. how much time/money it is worth spending to improve on your present good results. If it's a quick twist barrel (1-9" or quicker), you could try using any match ammo loaded with 68 or 69 or 75 grain HPBT match bullets. Those bullets are capable of shooting 1/2 MOA or better, you could see how your rifle shoots them (though good commercial match ammo always seems to be scandalously priced).

About 15 years ago a friend of mine tried to send a Rem 700 PSS ("Police Sniper Special/System") back because it just would not shoot any better than about one and a quarter MOA. Remington informed him that there was nothing with the rifle, that it in fact met spec (which was 1.5 MOA).
 
Are we talking a MOM - Minute of Moose, or a MOC - Minute of Coyote, or a MOG - Minute of Gopher.
Just how critical your requirements are depends - my concern was stopping someone from returning fire and connecting within a Minute of Me.
 
Really minute of ground squirrel at 200 is all I will ever need

JasonYuke said:
Most guys have a hard time hitting a 6 inch steel plate at 300 yards.

Most guys wont admitt this either.*
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Went out today, shooting into a strong head wind, my groups were HUGE! at 300m. Probably like 2 feet. I didn't think a head wind would have much effect.
It was dead calm for my other groups.
 
i have a similar 22-250 (sendero) would not shoot near as well as yours with factory even hand loads where had to find. now i am loading it with 52grain Hornady A-Max bullets with H4895 and it shoots great. 1/4" @ 100y. if your rifle shoots that well with factory dont rush into handloading. wait a little longer and get good quality reloading equipment. 80mm @ 300 yard is still a dead coyote.
 
JasonYuke said:
Most guys have a hard time hitting a 6 inch steel plate at 300 yards.

Most guys wont admitt this either.*
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I changed the 10" diameter gong we had at 300M to one that is 7" ... It is going to last a long time!

Holding 1 MOA to 300M with straight factory stuff is pretty decent.
 
Jeff000 said:
Went out today, shooting into a strong head wind, my groups were HUGE! at 300m. Probably like 2 feet. I didn't think a head wind would have much effect.
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Somewhat surprisingly, headwinds that don't vary in direction actually have little to no effect. Perhaps something else was happening. Was your shooting position affected by the wind (e.g. your rifle barrel or your table being buffeted by the wind, were you using a rear sand bag etc)? Basically, were you breaking good high quality shots when you were shooting in the wind?

How strong was the wind (ballpark), and how much did its strength vary, and how much did its direction vary?

Was your group 2 feet in diameter, or was it four inches high by twenty four inches wide?
 
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